A week after Donald Trump won a decisive victory in the presidential election, he is making appointments to his new White House. What do they tell us about his second term? Many European governments are turning against immigration but they still need agricultural migrants (10:29). And why place names in India are getting longer (18:20).

A week after Donald Trump won a decisive victory in the presidential election, he is <a href="https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/11/12/how-to-get-hired-by-donald-trump?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">making appointments</a> to his new White House. What do they tell us about his second term? Many European governments are turning against immigration but they still need <a href="https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/10/31/the-immigrants-europe-quietly-wants-more-of?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">agricultural migrants</a> (10:29). And why <a href="https://www.economist.com/asia/2024/09/05/welcome-to-india-where-the-streets-have-four-names?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">place names in India</a> are getting longer (18:20).

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The Intelligence

What Musk and other appointments tell us about Trump’s White House

Needs Musk: Donald Trump’s new appointments

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Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m your host, Rosie Blau. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. Anti-immigration sentiment is rising across Europe. But in the Netherlands, one group is grateful for the migration, and that’s farmers. And in recent years, place names in India have been getting longer and longer. Our correspondent in Mumbai has a bit of a rant. But first. It’s been a week since the US election and after his decisive victory, Donald Trump is pressing on with assembling his top team. His choices give us an insight into what a second Trump term will mean for America and the world. And his latest appointment is the most attention grabbing so far.

Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m your host, Rosie Blau. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. Anti-immigration sentiment is rising across Europe. But in the Netherlands, one group is grateful for the migration, and that’s farmers. And in recent years, place names in India have been getting longer and longer. Our correspondent in Mumbai has a bit of a rant. But first. It’s been a week since the US election and after his decisive victory, Donald Trump is pressing on with assembling his top team. His choices give us an insight into what a second Trump term will mean for America and the world. And his latest appointment is the most attention grabbing so far.

John Prideaux [00:01:29] Elon Musk has been officially appointed now to be part of the new Trump administration, and he’s going to be leading a commission on cutting government spending and regulation.

John Prideaux [00:01:29] Elon Musk has been officially appointed now to be part of the new Trump administration, and he’s going to be leading a commission on cutting government spending and regulation.

Rosie Blau [00:01:40] John Prideaux is our U.S. editor.

Rosie Blau [00:01:40] John Prideaux is our U.S. editor.

John Prideaux [00:01:42] And this is something that was previewed during the campaign, but somehow it’s still a bit of a surprise.

John Prideaux [00:01:42] And this is something that was previewed during the campaign, but somehow it’s still a bit of a surprise.

Clip [00:01:50] Come on up here, Elon. He created the first major American car company in generations, and his rocket company is the only reason we can now send American astronauts into space.

Clip [00:01:50] Come on up here, Elon. He created the first major American car company in generations, and his rocket company is the only reason we can now send American astronauts into space.

John Prideaux [00:02:04] Elon Musk was a big supporter of Donald Trump’s campaign. He famously wrote checks for $1 million to persuade likely Republican voters to sign petitions in swing states.

John Prideaux [00:02:04] Elon Musk was a big supporter of Donald Trump’s campaign. He famously wrote checks for $1 million to persuade likely Republican voters to sign petitions in swing states.

Clip [00:02:15] And we had one president who couldn’t climate flight of stairs and another who was fist pumping after getting shot. This is why he.

Clip [00:02:15] And we had one president who couldn’t climate flight of stairs and another who was fist pumping after getting shot. This is why he.

John Prideaux [00:02:27] Is the richest man in the world. He’s just got quite a bit richer because the stock prices of some of the companies he started shot up after Donald Trump won. And it seems he’s going to be playing a pretty important role.

John Prideaux [00:02:27] Is the richest man in the world. He’s just got quite a bit richer because the stock prices of some of the companies he started shot up after Donald Trump won. And it seems he’s going to be playing a pretty important role.

Rosie Blau [00:02:41] And, John, what does that actually mean? What will Musk actually be doing?

Rosie Blau [00:02:41] And, John, what does that actually mean? What will Musk actually be doing?

John Prideaux [00:02:45] Well, that’s a very good question, Rosie. And I think anybody who pretends to have the definitive answer to this is not being straight. I mean, what we can say is that he’s going to be working alongside Vivek Ramaswamy. Ramaswamy was one of the candidates in the Republican primary. He’s an entrepreneur, too. Nothing like as successful as Musk is who is right. But together they’re going to be leading a Department of Government efficiency. And this is an idea that originally came from Musk. It’s a new department. It’s unclear at the moment exactly how it will work or how it will be funded. And it would be a surprise to me if Musk’s dream was to head a huge federal bureaucracy. Right? And there would be something odd about setting up a large federal bureaucracy to cut federal bureaucracy. But it’s going to offer the White House and the Budget Office recommendations on how to slash regulation. Largely, the idea still needs approval or perhaps oversight from Congress. But it looks like this is a real thing, though.

John Prideaux [00:02:45] Well, that’s a very good question, Rosie. And I think anybody who pretends to have the definitive answer to this is not being straight. I mean, what we can say is that he’s going to be working alongside Vivek Ramaswamy. Ramaswamy was one of the candidates in the Republican primary. He’s an entrepreneur, too. Nothing like as successful as Musk is who is right. But together they’re going to be leading a Department of Government efficiency. And this is an idea that originally came from Musk. It’s a new department. It’s unclear at the moment exactly how it will work or how it will be funded. And it would be a surprise to me if Musk’s dream was to head a huge federal bureaucracy. Right? And there would be something odd about setting up a large federal bureaucracy to cut federal bureaucracy. But it’s going to offer the White House and the Budget Office recommendations on how to slash regulation. Largely, the idea still needs approval or perhaps oversight from Congress. But it looks like this is a real thing, though.

Rosie Blau [00:03:46] John. We could discuss Musk for hours, but. Musk And tell me about some of the other appointments that we’ve heard about as well.

Rosie Blau [00:03:46] John. We could discuss Musk for hours, but. Musk And tell me about some of the other appointments that we’ve heard about as well.

John Prideaux [00:03:52] There are so many rosy and they’ve come so quickly compared with last time. So intake of breath. Start with the people who work right outside the Oval Office. Susie Wiles will be his campaign chief of staff. She was his campaign manager in the election we’ve just had. He’s called her the Ice Maiden. She’s a political operative from Florida. She worked for Ron DeSantis, and then he fired her and Trump picked her up. And she’s deemed to have done a very good job on the campaign. She’s somebody quite unusual in Trump land. I think he’s very happy not to have the limelight. She didn’t speak to journalists much during the campaign. Then her deputy chief of staff is Stephen Miller. He is famed for being, I think, the most hard line person on immigration in the first Trump administration, which is saying something. He played a role in developing the travel ban on Muslims early in Donald Trump’s first term. He’s very much against illegal migration. But I think what distinguishes him is he’s not keen on legal migration either. From what I’ve read and seen of his record.

John Prideaux [00:03:52] There are so many rosy and they’ve come so quickly compared with last time. So intake of breath. Start with the people who work right outside the Oval Office. Susie Wiles will be his campaign chief of staff. She was his campaign manager in the election we’ve just had. He’s called her the Ice Maiden. She’s a political operative from Florida. She worked for Ron DeSantis, and then he fired her and Trump picked her up. And she’s deemed to have done a very good job on the campaign. She’s somebody quite unusual in Trump land. I think he’s very happy not to have the limelight. She didn’t speak to journalists much during the campaign. Then her deputy chief of staff is Stephen Miller. He is famed for being, I think, the most hard line person on immigration in the first Trump administration, which is saying something. He played a role in developing the travel ban on Muslims early in Donald Trump’s first term. He’s very much against illegal migration. But I think what distinguishes him is he’s not keen on legal migration either. From what I’ve read and seen of his record.

Rosie Blau [00:05:03] And what about his foreign policy and national security team?

Rosie Blau [00:05:03] And what about his foreign policy and national security team?

John Prideaux [00:05:07] And some big announcements there. So Marco Rubio is reportedly going to be Donald Trump’s secretary of state. I think that is quite a reassuring pick for allies. He’s a well-known figure. He is a senator from Florida. He has been on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He’s well informed about what’s going on in the world. So that’s a relatively reassuring one. He has, of course, genuflect before Donald Trump after losing to him in the 2016 primary. And it’s not the case. I think that he will have a different worldview to Donald Trump’s and be able to steer American foreign policy in a way that Donald Trump doesn’t like. Donald Trump will be in charge. But nevertheless, I think Rubio is an encouraging appointment. And then Donald Trump’s national security adviser will be Mike Waltz. He’s a Republican congressman, former Special Forces soldier. And he’s generally viewed as a decent, thoughtful, hardworking guy as well. He’s a hardliner on China, as Marco Rubio is he actually wrote a by invitation piece for The Economist recently just before the election, saying that he agrees that Donald Trump needs to wrap up conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East so that America can focus its attentions on the competition with China. And then Elise Stefanik, who is a congresswoman from upstate New York. Trump has tapped her to be his ambassador to the United Nations. Stefanik is mainly known for her role in cross-examining university presidents. When clashes between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian students broke out on American campuses earlier this year. So in many ways, she’s not an obvious pick for this. However, if your aim is to send somebody to United Nations who’s going to cause trouble, then the pick makes some sense in that context.

John Prideaux [00:05:07] And some big announcements there. So Marco Rubio is reportedly going to be Donald Trump’s secretary of state. I think that is quite a reassuring pick for allies. He’s a well-known figure. He is a senator from Florida. He has been on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He’s well informed about what’s going on in the world. So that’s a relatively reassuring one. He has, of course, genuflect before Donald Trump after losing to him in the 2016 primary. And it’s not the case. I think that he will have a different worldview to Donald Trump’s and be able to steer American foreign policy in a way that Donald Trump doesn’t like. Donald Trump will be in charge. But nevertheless, I think Rubio is an encouraging appointment. And then Donald Trump’s national security adviser will be Mike Waltz. He’s a Republican congressman, former Special Forces soldier. And he’s generally viewed as a decent, thoughtful, hardworking guy as well. He’s a hardliner on China, as Marco Rubio is he actually wrote a by invitation piece for The Economist recently just before the election, saying that he agrees that Donald Trump needs to wrap up conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East so that America can focus its attentions on the competition with China. And then Elise Stefanik, who is a congresswoman from upstate New York. Trump has tapped her to be his ambassador to the United Nations. Stefanik is mainly known for her role in cross-examining university presidents. When clashes between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian students broke out on American campuses earlier this year. So in many ways, she’s not an obvious pick for this. However, if your aim is to send somebody to United Nations who’s going to cause trouble, then the pick makes some sense in that context.

Rosie Blau [00:07:03] Another one that’s just come in is Pete Hegseth as secretary of defense. Explain that one to me.

Rosie Blau [00:07:03] Another one that’s just come in is Pete Hegseth as secretary of defense. Explain that one to me.

John Prideaux [00:07:09] I would love it if you could explain it to me, Rosie. I mean, I’d say that the first few picks we talked about for the national security team, Rubio and Waltz are broadly reassuring. Hegseth is not Hegseth is a Fox News talking head. His qualifications for the position, which is a hugely important one, know the Department of Defense, spends a very large share of America’s budget. It employs a huge number of people in overall charge of, obviously the Army, Navy, the Air Force in America. This is a really, really, really big job. Donald Trump’s first secretary of defense was James Mattis, who came in with a great reputation and thought a lot about America’s military reshaping It had serious combat experience himself. Access. He has distinguished himself by denouncing wokeness in the military.

John Prideaux [00:07:09] I would love it if you could explain it to me, Rosie. I mean, I’d say that the first few picks we talked about for the national security team, Rubio and Waltz are broadly reassuring. Hegseth is not Hegseth is a Fox News talking head. His qualifications for the position, which is a hugely important one, know the Department of Defense, spends a very large share of America’s budget. It employs a huge number of people in overall charge of, obviously the Army, Navy, the Air Force in America. This is a really, really, really big job. Donald Trump’s first secretary of defense was James Mattis, who came in with a great reputation and thought a lot about America’s military reshaping It had serious combat experience himself. Access. He has distinguished himself by denouncing wokeness in the military.

Clip [00:08:01] You can move to a different state if you want to go to a different school or if you want a different tax rate. We only have one military, and if the military goes woke, then it is less equipped to fight the words it needs to fight.

Clip [00:08:01] You can move to a different state if you want to go to a different school or if you want a different tax rate. We only have one military, and if the military goes woke, then it is less equipped to fight the words it needs to fight.

John Prideaux [00:08:12] My reading of what’s happened here would be that Donald Trump felt let down, betrayed by the generals he picked in his first term who turned on him, and that this experience has left him thinking that the Department of Defense is a sort of hotbed of resistance, which, you know, clearly is not true. And so Hegseth has been to shake that up. Donald Trump always picks people who look good on TV. I mean, that is one of the filters in addition to ideology and loyalty this time. So Hegseth makes sense on that score. But by any other criteria, I think you have to say flatly that he’s completely under-qualified for the job.

John Prideaux [00:08:12] My reading of what’s happened here would be that Donald Trump felt let down, betrayed by the generals he picked in his first term who turned on him, and that this experience has left him thinking that the Department of Defense is a sort of hotbed of resistance, which, you know, clearly is not true. And so Hegseth has been to shake that up. Donald Trump always picks people who look good on TV. I mean, that is one of the filters in addition to ideology and loyalty this time. So Hegseth makes sense on that score. But by any other criteria, I think you have to say flatly that he’s completely under-qualified for the job.

Rosie Blau [00:08:51] So what do all of these appointments tell us about what Donald Trump’s second term might look like?

Rosie Blau [00:08:51] So what do all of these appointments tell us about what Donald Trump’s second term might look like?

John Prideaux [00:08:56] Well, it’s important to say we haven’t got the complete picture yet. We don’t know who Donald Trump’s treasury secretary will be. For example, some of the economic policy team matter a lot to us here at The Economist and give more of a sign of where he’s likely to go on tariffs or rather how big those tariffs are likely to be. But I think you could say two things. One is about the process of picking and announcing these appointments. It has been more orderly than last time around. It’s clear that the work that was done in opposition to think about who might be appropriate for each role is bearing fruit. And the other thing I’d say is that with the exception of secretary of defense, the picks so far are generally people who are qualified and have some governing experience. They are all people who agree with Donald Trump on pretty much everything, or at least say they do in public. And I, you know, sincerely believe they actually do. That’s very different to last time around when, frankly, Donald Trump didn’t expect to win and his team was not prepared and didn’t know how to staff an administration. There’s been lots of work done on this over the past few years, and we’re seeing the results of that now.

John Prideaux [00:08:56] Well, it’s important to say we haven’t got the complete picture yet. We don’t know who Donald Trump’s treasury secretary will be. For example, some of the economic policy team matter a lot to us here at The Economist and give more of a sign of where he’s likely to go on tariffs or rather how big those tariffs are likely to be. But I think you could say two things. One is about the process of picking and announcing these appointments. It has been more orderly than last time around. It’s clear that the work that was done in opposition to think about who might be appropriate for each role is bearing fruit. And the other thing I’d say is that with the exception of secretary of defense, the picks so far are generally people who are qualified and have some governing experience. They are all people who agree with Donald Trump on pretty much everything, or at least say they do in public. And I, you know, sincerely believe they actually do. That’s very different to last time around when, frankly, Donald Trump didn’t expect to win and his team was not prepared and didn’t know how to staff an administration. There’s been lots of work done on this over the past few years, and we’re seeing the results of that now.

Rosie Blau [00:10:08] John, thank you so much. And I’m sure you’ll be talking more about this on checks and balance on Friday.

Rosie Blau [00:10:08] John, thank you so much. And I’m sure you’ll be talking more about this on checks and balance on Friday.

John Prideaux [00:10:13] We sure well. Rosie, thank you.

John Prideaux [00:10:13] We sure well. Rosie, thank you.

Rosie Blau [00:10:32] Immigration is one of the biggest flashpoints in European politics.

Rosie Blau [00:10:32] Immigration is one of the biggest flashpoints in European politics.

Clip [00:10:36] We need to be able to protect our borders we need to know who is in Sweden.

Clip [00:10:36] We need to be able to protect our borders we need to know who is in Sweden.

Clip [00:10:41] To stop illegal migration. We must all.

Clip [00:10:41] To stop illegal migration. We must all.

Clip [00:10:45] One of the major issues in the Dutch politics today what direction will we go when it comes to our own border and immigration and asylum.

Clip [00:10:45] One of the major issues in the Dutch politics today what direction will we go when it comes to our own border and immigration and asylum.

Rosie Blau [00:10:53] Policy? As more and more governments turn against it, you’d think that the number of migrants would be on the wane, particularly low skilled ones. But in one sector, quite the opposite is happening.

Rosie Blau [00:10:53] Policy? As more and more governments turn against it, you’d think that the number of migrants would be on the wane, particularly low skilled ones. But in one sector, quite the opposite is happening.

Matt Steinglass [00:11:05] All across Europe. Immigration has become a bit of a boogeyman.

Matt Steinglass [00:11:05] All across Europe. Immigration has become a bit of a boogeyman.

Rosie Blau [00:11:10] Matt Steinglass is our Europe correspondent.

Rosie Blau [00:11:10] Matt Steinglass is our Europe correspondent.

Matt Steinglass [00:11:13] Governments are introducing policies to try to restrict immigration. The problem is that much of Europe’s agriculture is absolutely dependent on migrant workers. And one of the big constituent groups of those right wing governments are farmers. And that tension is causing ructions inside a lot of these new right leaning governments.

Matt Steinglass [00:11:13] Governments are introducing policies to try to restrict immigration. The problem is that much of Europe’s agriculture is absolutely dependent on migrant workers. And one of the big constituent groups of those right wing governments are farmers. And that tension is causing ructions inside a lot of these new right leaning governments.

Rosie Blau [00:11:37] You say that agriculture in Europe depends on migrant workers. Just how many migrant workers we actually talking about here?

Rosie Blau [00:11:37] You say that agriculture in Europe depends on migrant workers. Just how many migrant workers we actually talking about here?

Matt Steinglass [00:11:44] It’s hard to get accurate figures because a lot of migration happens informally or short term and isn’t tracked well. But the estimates from the European Union are that about 2 million Europeans cross borders to work on farms every year. And beyond that, there are another maybe 400,000 migrant workers who come in from outside the EU to work on European farms. That’s about a third of the bloc’s agricultural workforce, which is somewhere between 7 and 9 million. And different countries attract different kinds of migrants or get their migrants from different places. It used to be that Western European countries like Germany, the Netherlands and Italy would get migrants from Eastern European countries that are members of the EU like Poland, Romania and Bulgaria. But lately, wages in Eastern Europe have been rising. So a lot of Poles, for example, don’t want to leave Poland anymore. They make more money at home. And countries are being pushed to recruit more and more migrant workers from Asia and Africa. In fact, Poland itself now recruits migrant agricultural workers from South Asia.

Matt Steinglass [00:11:44] It’s hard to get accurate figures because a lot of migration happens informally or short term and isn’t tracked well. But the estimates from the European Union are that about 2 million Europeans cross borders to work on farms every year. And beyond that, there are another maybe 400,000 migrant workers who come in from outside the EU to work on European farms. That’s about a third of the bloc’s agricultural workforce, which is somewhere between 7 and 9 million. And different countries attract different kinds of migrants or get their migrants from different places. It used to be that Western European countries like Germany, the Netherlands and Italy would get migrants from Eastern European countries that are members of the EU like Poland, Romania and Bulgaria. But lately, wages in Eastern Europe have been rising. So a lot of Poles, for example, don’t want to leave Poland anymore. They make more money at home. And countries are being pushed to recruit more and more migrant workers from Asia and Africa. In fact, Poland itself now recruits migrant agricultural workers from South Asia.

Rosie Blau [00:12:50] So despite the anti-immigrant sentiment, they’re still bringing in these agricultural workers.

Rosie Blau [00:12:50] So despite the anti-immigrant sentiment, they’re still bringing in these agricultural workers.

Matt Steinglass [00:12:55] Yes, European agriculture simply can’t do without them. The head of Italy’s Association of Farmers itself says young Italians don’t want to do agricultural work. So Italy has an annual shortfall of about 200,000 workers in the agriculture sector. They’re bringing in people who are still willing to do that kind of work. And that brings them into political conflict with anti-immigrant groups, which is something you can see very clearly in the Netherlands.

Matt Steinglass [00:12:55] Yes, European agriculture simply can’t do without them. The head of Italy’s Association of Farmers itself says young Italians don’t want to do agricultural work. So Italy has an annual shortfall of about 200,000 workers in the agriculture sector. They’re bringing in people who are still willing to do that kind of work. And that brings them into political conflict with anti-immigrant groups, which is something you can see very clearly in the Netherlands.

Rosie Blau [00:13:20] And so what’s happening in the Netherlands?

Rosie Blau [00:13:20] And so what’s happening in the Netherlands?

Matt Steinglass [00:13:22] People don’t realize this, but the Netherlands is a tiny country that is the world’s second biggest agricultural exporter. Its farmers are incredibly productive. You can see that off the train windows if you take a ride through the western Netherlands. You see row after row of greenhouses where peppers and tomatoes are raised under lights throughout the year. So in a lot of the Dutch greenhouses during harvest season, 80% or more of the workers will come from Eastern Europe or elsewhere. I talked to an expert on migrant workers in the Netherlands named Yann Kremer. He’s at the University of Tilburg, and he says that the figure may be higher than 80% when you look at the most intensive, laborious tasks.

Matt Steinglass [00:13:22] People don’t realize this, but the Netherlands is a tiny country that is the world’s second biggest agricultural exporter. Its farmers are incredibly productive. You can see that off the train windows if you take a ride through the western Netherlands. You see row after row of greenhouses where peppers and tomatoes are raised under lights throughout the year. So in a lot of the Dutch greenhouses during harvest season, 80% or more of the workers will come from Eastern Europe or elsewhere. I talked to an expert on migrant workers in the Netherlands named Yann Kremer. He’s at the University of Tilburg, and he says that the figure may be higher than 80% when you look at the most intensive, laborious tasks.

Clip [00:14:02] What I found in, let’s say, in the local research is that basically all the repetitive seasonal work in, let’s say in the lowest segment is done by temporary workers.

Clip [00:14:02] What I found in, let’s say, in the local research is that basically all the repetitive seasonal work in, let’s say in the lowest segment is done by temporary workers.

Rosie Blau [00:14:18] And how is that playing politically?

Rosie Blau [00:14:18] And how is that playing politically?

Matt Steinglass [00:14:20] After an election last year, the Netherlands wound up with its most hard write government since the Second World War, and the biggest party in that government is an anti-immigrant party called the Party for Freedom. But another partner in the coalition is a relatively new farmers party called the Farmer Citizen Movement. And those two are at odds with each other over what to do about immigration. A lot of voters in the country are extremely concerned about the pressure that immigration puts on housing. A lot of these immigrants are brought in by employment agencies, and those employment agencies often buy apartments or houses and cram the migrant workers into whatever spaces available. You’ll get five or even ten migrants sharing one room with mattresses on the floor. People have to sleep in shifts. That’s obviously not very nice for your neighborhood. So it produces a lot of local political tension and you end up with a lot of disagreement between parties like the Party for Freedom and Parties, like the former citizen movement.

Matt Steinglass [00:14:20] After an election last year, the Netherlands wound up with its most hard write government since the Second World War, and the biggest party in that government is an anti-immigrant party called the Party for Freedom. But another partner in the coalition is a relatively new farmers party called the Farmer Citizen Movement. And those two are at odds with each other over what to do about immigration. A lot of voters in the country are extremely concerned about the pressure that immigration puts on housing. A lot of these immigrants are brought in by employment agencies, and those employment agencies often buy apartments or houses and cram the migrant workers into whatever spaces available. You’ll get five or even ten migrants sharing one room with mattresses on the floor. People have to sleep in shifts. That’s obviously not very nice for your neighborhood. So it produces a lot of local political tension and you end up with a lot of disagreement between parties like the Party for Freedom and Parties, like the former citizen movement.

Rosie Blau [00:15:21] So, Matt, you mentioned that migrants are being crammed into rooms. Are they being exploited in other ways as well?

Rosie Blau [00:15:21] So, Matt, you mentioned that migrants are being crammed into rooms. Are they being exploited in other ways as well?

Matt Steinglass [00:15:28] Yes, they are often find by the employment agencies for small infractions that end up being unable to repay those fines. They may have their passports or I.D. cards confiscated, so they can’t leave the jobs that they’ve been pushed into. And sometimes they arrive and find that the work is not what they were promised. Marina, a Polish migrant worker I spoke with, talked about the way that most migrant workers see the exploitative power of these employment agencies.

Matt Steinglass [00:15:28] Yes, they are often find by the employment agencies for small infractions that end up being unable to repay those fines. They may have their passports or I.D. cards confiscated, so they can’t leave the jobs that they’ve been pushed into. And sometimes they arrive and find that the work is not what they were promised. Marina, a Polish migrant worker I spoke with, talked about the way that most migrant workers see the exploitative power of these employment agencies.

Clip [00:15:54] Obviously, no matter how communist or asy unstman.

Clip [00:15:54] Obviously, no matter how communist or asy unstman.

Matt Steinglass [00:16:03] She was recruited with her husband in mid-October to come to the Netherlands from Poland. They were told that they were going to be given jobs at a laundry, but when they arrived, the agency tried to force them to work at a slaughterhouse. They were able to refuse. They turned to a labor union called Fee for help. But that’s because working as an experienced worker has been going abroad for 18 years and speaks good English. A lot of these immigrants don’t have anybody they can turn to. The government is planning to step up inspections of those employment agencies. There’s a new law coming in to regulate them next year, but it also wants to discourage all Dutch industries, actually including agriculture, from using so much cheap labor. The government thinks that the economy should simply shift towards more high skilled migrants, and that is likely to create problems for farmers.

Matt Steinglass [00:16:03] She was recruited with her husband in mid-October to come to the Netherlands from Poland. They were told that they were going to be given jobs at a laundry, but when they arrived, the agency tried to force them to work at a slaughterhouse. They were able to refuse. They turned to a labor union called Fee for help. But that’s because working as an experienced worker has been going abroad for 18 years and speaks good English. A lot of these immigrants don’t have anybody they can turn to. The government is planning to step up inspections of those employment agencies. There’s a new law coming in to regulate them next year, but it also wants to discourage all Dutch industries, actually including agriculture, from using so much cheap labor. The government thinks that the economy should simply shift towards more high skilled migrants, and that is likely to create problems for farmers.

Rosie Blau [00:16:53] So it sounds like the tensions aren’t going away in the Netherlands. What about in the other European countries that you mentioned earlier that are also bringing in large numbers of agricultural workers?

Rosie Blau [00:16:53] So it sounds like the tensions aren’t going away in the Netherlands. What about in the other European countries that you mentioned earlier that are also bringing in large numbers of agricultural workers?

Matt Steinglass [00:17:04] That employment agency system is a bit of a Dutch specialty. In other countries, migrant workers tend to be hired directly by the farmers that they’re heading to, but that doesn’t mean that they’re less exploited. You hear very similar stories from Germany of workers who are handed to different timesheets, for example, one for a ten hour day, which is what they are allowed to work legally, and another for the 14 hour day, which is what they actually work. Despite those kinds of hardships, though, migrants keep coming largely because they can make four times as much in the West or more as they would back home. And it’s important to remember that this sort of freedom of movement is one of the reasons for the existence of the European Union. The idea is that people in poor countries ought to be able to go to richer countries to earn better wages. If Western Europe tries to discourage that sort of migration, it weakens the EU’s agricultural model and it could prove a hardship for a lot of Western European farmers, which they might not be able to survive.

Matt Steinglass [00:17:04] That employment agency system is a bit of a Dutch specialty. In other countries, migrant workers tend to be hired directly by the farmers that they’re heading to, but that doesn’t mean that they’re less exploited. You hear very similar stories from Germany of workers who are handed to different timesheets, for example, one for a ten hour day, which is what they are allowed to work legally, and another for the 14 hour day, which is what they actually work. Despite those kinds of hardships, though, migrants keep coming largely because they can make four times as much in the West or more as they would back home. And it’s important to remember that this sort of freedom of movement is one of the reasons for the existence of the European Union. The idea is that people in poor countries ought to be able to go to richer countries to earn better wages. If Western Europe tries to discourage that sort of migration, it weakens the EU’s agricultural model and it could prove a hardship for a lot of Western European farmers, which they might not be able to survive.

Rosie Blau [00:18:07] Matt, great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Rosie Blau [00:18:07] Matt, great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Matt Steinglass [00:18:10] You too, Rosie. Thanks so much.

Matt Steinglass [00:18:10] You too, Rosie. Thanks so much.

Rosie Blau [00:18:22] In 300m at the roundabout. Take the fourth exit.

Rosie Blau [00:18:22] In 300m at the roundabout. Take the fourth exit.

Leo Mirani [00:18:29] That sound you just heard was the sound of me going down in a car on this big new road that’s opened in Bombay where I live.

Leo Mirani [00:18:29] That sound you just heard was the sound of me going down in a car on this big new road that’s opened in Bombay where I live.

Leo Mirani [00:18:37] Leo Mariani is our Asia correspondent and is based in Mumbai, which he still insists on calling Bombay.

Leo Mirani [00:18:37] Leo Mariani is our Asia correspondent and is based in Mumbai, which he still insists on calling Bombay.

Leo Mirani [00:18:44] It’s colloquially referred to as the coastal road because it is a road on the coast. On one side is the city, these beautiful vistas, lovely skyline, and on the other side is the Arabian Sea. However, its official name is somewhat trickier. In fact, it’s so tricky. I had to write down because I can’t remember all of it. Its official name is Brace yourself. The remedy is for the injured party. Somebody. Maharaj Coastal Road. I’ll translate. That is Faith Defender, Self-Rule Protector. Umbrella Lord Somebody King of Kings Coastal Road. This is a particularly egregious example of a long name, but over the past few years, names in India just seem to be getting longer and longer. Nominal inflation is a domain economics, but it’s pretty useful when talking about names as well. So I like to call this nominal hyper inflation, where you take a name that used to be 1 or 2 or could easily be 1 or 2 words and expand it to 5 or 6. And this is not just a Bombay problem. It’s been going on all across the country for several years now. Here’s one example. In the northern state, Little British. There’s a town called Morgan Tonight. 11 characters. Easy enough. That name was changed to Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay novel. 33 characters. Imagine having to fill in a form if you lived there. And India has a lot of forms. I mean, this just wastes a lot of time. The reason all this is happening is because politicians are under the almost certainly mistaken impression that this wins them votes. Suddenly, it helps them reinforce their credentials as being proud Austrians or proud Hindus or whatever. It’s an extension of what has been going on actually for decades now, which was a process of decolonization. So Calcutta became Calcutta of Madras became Chennai. Except no, it’s not just decolonization. It’s an elongation. Look, I’m not criticizing the naming or renaming of things. This is part of government’s job. Anything the state creates, whether it’s a bridge or a school or a law or a new subsidy scheme, everything needs a name. And India is a relatively new country. It achieved independence only in 1947. And as the founders of this country set about building a nation at the name a lot of things. Initially, they praised clarity of creativity. So when they created a bunch of new institutes of technology, they named them the Indian Institute of Technology. When the rearranged and renamed Big Northern State, they named it Little British or Northern State. But that was then. Over the years, this decline has set in. So, for example, of the 77 years that India has been independent for 54, it was ruled by the Congress Party, which is now in opposition. For 38 of those years, it was ruled by somebody called Nehru-gandhi, which is way today. The airport in Delhi is called Indira Gandhi Airport. The one in Hyderabad is called Rajiv Gandhi Airport. And here in Bombay, the national park is called Sanjay Gandhi National Park. Sanjay, Gandhi’s chief achievement was being Indira Gandhi’s son. And when they were naming things of their leaders, the Congress Party produced ugly or barely pronounceable acronyms like Noriega, which is a job scheme, or Nabard, which is an agricultural bank. Prime Minister should he not in the moderate US Modi. So when you’re in the movie and his party, General Party or the BJP came to power in 2014, it was actually a bit of a breath of fresh air and some pretty fun ideas. For example, they renamed a department for traditional medicine as a use which is Sanskrit for wellbeing ish, but it’s also an acronym for some of these traditional medicines, like a leather yoga Unani said the homeopathy. My personal favorite is the subsidy scheme for regional flights. It’s called Gurung, which is an acronym for actually these. I’m not Greek Let the common man of the country flight but put on words which just means flight in Hindi. That’s a nice one. Sometimes they could get carried away though. There’s a scheme to promote military production called Maharishi. You know, Maharishi, like the chap the Beatles went to see. Except that stands for Millets and other Ancient Grains International Research Initiative. Look, I like puns as much as the next economist employee, but there are limits. This probably all sounds utterly insignificant. Who cares if acronyms are terrible? Who cares if it’s clever? But it’s about more than just what something is called. It betrays a fundamental seriousness at several levels of government. It’s wasting time on the wrong things. It imposes a huge cost to ordinary citizens, not just in form filling, but in actual practicality. In Bombay, where they’ve been renaming streets for years. No, nobody ever uses any of the real names of any streets. Nobody even knows where they are off the dime. The navigation is done entirely through landmarks. It’s just not something that a serious country that wants to expand its economy, reform things and be more than should be doing. And it’s not like Indians are unfamiliar with multiple names. India itself is officially called both India and Bharat and also colloquially called Hindustan. But this is a really odd way to run a country. Whatever it’s called.

Leo Mirani [00:18:44] It’s colloquially referred to as the coastal road because it is a road on the coast. On one side is the city, these beautiful vistas, lovely skyline, and on the other side is the Arabian Sea. However, its official name is somewhat trickier. In fact, it’s so tricky. I had to write down because I can’t remember all of it. Its official name is Brace yourself. The remedy is for the injured party. Somebody. Maharaj Coastal Road. I’ll translate. That is Faith Defender, Self-Rule Protector. Umbrella Lord Somebody King of Kings Coastal Road. This is a particularly egregious example of a long name, but over the past few years, names in India just seem to be getting longer and longer. Nominal inflation is a domain economics, but it’s pretty useful when talking about names as well. So I like to call this nominal hyper inflation, where you take a name that used to be 1 or 2 or could easily be 1 or 2 words and expand it to 5 or 6. And this is not just a Bombay problem. It’s been going on all across the country for several years now. Here’s one example. In the northern state, Little British. There’s a town called Morgan Tonight. 11 characters. Easy enough. That name was changed to Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay novel. 33 characters. Imagine having to fill in a form if you lived there. And India has a lot of forms. I mean, this just wastes a lot of time. The reason all this is happening is because politicians are under the almost certainly mistaken impression that this wins them votes. Suddenly, it helps them reinforce their credentials as being proud Austrians or proud Hindus or whatever. It’s an extension of what has been going on actually for decades now, which was a process of decolonization. So Calcutta became Calcutta of Madras became Chennai. Except no, it’s not just decolonization. It’s an elongation. Look, I’m not criticizing the naming or renaming of things. This is part of government’s job. Anything the state creates, whether it’s a bridge or a school or a law or a new subsidy scheme, everything needs a name. And India is a relatively new country. It achieved independence only in 1947. And as the founders of this country set about building a nation at the name a lot of things. Initially, they praised clarity of creativity. So when they created a bunch of new institutes of technology, they named them the Indian Institute of Technology. When the rearranged and renamed Big Northern State, they named it Little British or Northern State. But that was then. Over the years, this decline has set in. So, for example, of the 77 years that India has been independent for 54, it was ruled by the Congress Party, which is now in opposition. For 38 of those years, it was ruled by somebody called Nehru-gandhi, which is way today. The airport in Delhi is called Indira Gandhi Airport. The one in Hyderabad is called Rajiv Gandhi Airport. And here in Bombay, the national park is called Sanjay Gandhi National Park. Sanjay, Gandhi’s chief achievement was being Indira Gandhi’s son. And when they were naming things of their leaders, the Congress Party produced ugly or barely pronounceable acronyms like Noriega, which is a job scheme, or Nabard, which is an agricultural bank. Prime Minister should he not in the moderate US Modi. So when you’re in the movie and his party, General Party or the BJP came to power in 2014, it was actually a bit of a breath of fresh air and some pretty fun ideas. For example, they renamed a department for traditional medicine as a use which is Sanskrit for wellbeing ish, but it’s also an acronym for some of these traditional medicines, like a leather yoga Unani said the homeopathy. My personal favorite is the subsidy scheme for regional flights. It’s called Gurung, which is an acronym for actually these. I’m not Greek Let the common man of the country flight but put on words which just means flight in Hindi. That’s a nice one. Sometimes they could get carried away though. There’s a scheme to promote military production called Maharishi. You know, Maharishi, like the chap the Beatles went to see. Except that stands for Millets and other Ancient Grains International Research Initiative. Look, I like puns as much as the next economist employee, but there are limits. This probably all sounds utterly insignificant. Who cares if acronyms are terrible? Who cares if it’s clever? But it’s about more than just what something is called. It betrays a fundamental seriousness at several levels of government. It’s wasting time on the wrong things. It imposes a huge cost to ordinary citizens, not just in form filling, but in actual practicality. In Bombay, where they’ve been renaming streets for years. No, nobody ever uses any of the real names of any streets. Nobody even knows where they are off the dime. The navigation is done entirely through landmarks. It’s just not something that a serious country that wants to expand its economy, reform things and be more than should be doing. And it’s not like Indians are unfamiliar with multiple names. India itself is officially called both India and Bharat and also colloquially called Hindustan. But this is a really odd way to run a country. Whatever it’s called.

Rosie Blau [00:24:35] Subscribing to economist podcasts plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence Dudes. Know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:24:35] Subscribing to economist podcasts plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence Dudes. Know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

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