Gautam Adani is one of India’s richest men, whose fortunes are closely aligned to those of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. What will the political ramifications be of bribery charges against him? China’s property crisis has left a truly staggering number of new homes empty (9:01). And why Jordan Peterson is so contrarian, yet so popular (17:09). Runtime: 23 min

<a href="https://www.economist.com/asia/2024/11/24/the-adani-scandal-creates-a-storm-for-narendra-modi?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">Gautam Adani</a> is one of India’s richest men, whose fortunes are closely aligned to those of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. What will the political ramifications be of bribery charges against him? <a href="https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/10/31/why-china-needs-to-fill-its-empty-homes?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">China’s property crisis</a> has left a truly staggering number of new homes empty (9:01). And why<a href="https://www.economist.com/culture/2024/11/19/the-cult-of-jordan-peterson?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank"> Jordan Peterson</a> is so contrarian, yet so popular (17:09). Runtime: 23 min

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The Intelligence 

The Adani scandal is another setback for Narendra Modi

The Intelligence

Scandal in the wind: Adani’s indictment could hurt Modi

Jason Palmer [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Jason Palmer [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Rosie Blau [00:00:14] And I’m Rosie Bloor. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your worlds.

Rosie Blau [00:00:14] And I’m Rosie Bloor. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your worlds.

Jason Palmer [00:00:25] Over the past few years, we’ve been telling you about China’s property crisis, a heady mix of rampant building, iffy debt and a near collapse of the market. Things are more stable now, but all that has left a truly staggering number of new homes empty.

Jason Palmer [00:00:25] Over the past few years, we’ve been telling you about China’s property crisis, a heady mix of rampant building, iffy debt and a near collapse of the market. Things are more stable now, but all that has left a truly staggering number of new homes empty.

Rosie Blau [00:00:41] And Jordan Peterson is a Canadian academic and contrarian who’s had fights with more or less everyone. But when our correspondent heard him speak, the crowd hung on his words like he was a priest giving a sermon. First up, though.

Rosie Blau [00:00:41] And Jordan Peterson is a Canadian academic and contrarian who’s had fights with more or less everyone. But when our correspondent heard him speak, the crowd hung on his words like he was a priest giving a sermon. First up, though.

Clip [00:01:07] Happening inside your.

Rosie Blau [00:01:12] Party this weekend. Prime Minister Narendra modi’s BJP party won a landslide election in the Indian state of Maharashtra. The poll in India’s richest state had been touted as a bellwether of support for Modi, and it should have given him a much needed political boost after he failed to win an outright majority in national elections earlier this year. But the victory is being overshadowed by a scandal.

Rosie Blau [00:01:12] Party this weekend. Prime Minister Narendra modi’s BJP party won a landslide election in the Indian state of Maharashtra. The poll in India’s richest state had been touted as a bellwether of support for Modi, and it should have given him a much needed political boost after he failed to win an outright majority in national elections earlier this year. But the victory is being overshadowed by a scandal.

Jeremy Page [00:01:40] For the second time in two years. The Adani group, which is a colossal Indian conglomerate, has been accused of criminal activity from the other side of the world.

Jeremy Page [00:01:40] For the second time in two years. The Adani group, which is a colossal Indian conglomerate, has been accused of criminal activity from the other side of the world.

Rosie Blau [00:01:49] Jeremy Page is our Asia diplomatic editor.

Rosie Blau [00:01:49] Jeremy Page is our Asia diplomatic editor.

Jeremy Page [00:01:53] Its founder and chairman, Gautam Adani is India’s second richest man and a long time ally of the Prime Minister, Narendra modi. Adani’s indictment by US federal prosecutors last week has rocked India and provided ammunition for the Prime Minister’s enemies.

Jeremy Page [00:01:53] Its founder and chairman, Gautam Adani is India’s second richest man and a long time ally of the Prime Minister, Narendra modi. Adani’s indictment by US federal prosecutors last week has rocked India and provided ammunition for the Prime Minister’s enemies.

Rosie Blau [00:02:11] Jeremy, before we get on to the indictment itself, just remind us quite how influential Gautam Adani is.

Rosie Blau [00:02:11] Jeremy, before we get on to the indictment itself, just remind us quite how influential Gautam Adani is.

Jeremy Page [00:02:18] Adani is almost synonymous with Modi’s India. He runs this enormous business empire that spans everything from ports and airports to defence, cement and energy. The company is one of the biggest private players in the power industry with six coal fired power plants. And it is also very active in the renewable energy business and it’s the renewable energy part which is at the heart of these allegations.

Jeremy Page [00:02:18] Adani is almost synonymous with Modi’s India. He runs this enormous business empire that spans everything from ports and airports to defence, cement and energy. The company is one of the biggest private players in the power industry with six coal fired power plants. And it is also very active in the renewable energy business and it’s the renewable energy part which is at the heart of these allegations.

Rosie Blau [00:02:43] And so what is he actually being accused of or what is the Adani group more broadly being accused of?

Rosie Blau [00:02:43] And so what is he actually being accused of or what is the Adani group more broadly being accused of?

Jeremy Page [00:02:48] So in this indictment that American prosecutors filed last week, they alleged that Mr. Adani himself and seven other individuals were involved in a scheme to pay more than $250 million in bribes to Indian officials, and that was to enter into contracts with a state owned solar energy company. And the indictment says that Adani himself was directly involved with this at one point meeting with a local government official to discuss this. The indictment also alleges that Adani and others misrepresented the company’s anti-bribery practices to American investors and international financial institutions. The Adani group denies all of these allegations. This is, though, the second time that Adani group has been accused of fraud in the last two years. In January of 2023, a US based short seller accused it of what it called the largest con in corporate history, saying that the company had used obscure offshore funds to prop up its value and that its finances were far more fragile than they seemed. Now, the Adani group also denied those claims. And an investigation by India’s market regulator found no evidence of wrongdoing.

Jeremy Page [00:02:48] So in this indictment that American prosecutors filed last week, they alleged that Mr. Adani himself and seven other individuals were involved in a scheme to pay more than $250 million in bribes to Indian officials, and that was to enter into contracts with a state owned solar energy company. And the indictment says that Adani himself was directly involved with this at one point meeting with a local government official to discuss this. The indictment also alleges that Adani and others misrepresented the company’s anti-bribery practices to American investors and international financial institutions. The Adani group denies all of these allegations. This is, though, the second time that Adani group has been accused of fraud in the last two years. In January of 2023, a US based short seller accused it of what it called the largest con in corporate history, saying that the company had used obscure offshore funds to prop up its value and that its finances were far more fragile than they seemed. Now, the Adani group also denied those claims. And an investigation by India’s market regulator found no evidence of wrongdoing.

Rosie Blau [00:04:05] You’ve said that Adani is synonymous with Modi’s India and he’s, of course, a close ally of Modi’s. So how will this affect the prime minister?

Rosie Blau [00:04:05] You’ve said that Adani is synonymous with Modi’s India and he’s, of course, a close ally of Modi’s. So how will this affect the prime minister?

Jeremy Page [00:04:14] It’s hard to predict exactly, but they are very close allies. Adani is from the western state of Gujarat, where Modi himself was born and was then the chief minister from 2001 to 2014. And they’ve worked together for many, many years. It’s important to say that the indictment does not implicate Modi directly, but it has really given fresh political momentum to India’s opposition just as parliament was beginning its winter session. And that started today. And the Adani scandal is already starting to sort of dominate the proceedings. Opposition leader Rahul Gandhi called at the end of last week for Adani’s arrest, and he’s also now seeking a parliamentary investigation.

Jeremy Page [00:04:14] It’s hard to predict exactly, but they are very close allies. Adani is from the western state of Gujarat, where Modi himself was born and was then the chief minister from 2001 to 2014. And they’ve worked together for many, many years. It’s important to say that the indictment does not implicate Modi directly, but it has really given fresh political momentum to India’s opposition just as parliament was beginning its winter session. And that started today. And the Adani scandal is already starting to sort of dominate the proceedings. Opposition leader Rahul Gandhi called at the end of last week for Adani’s arrest, and he’s also now seeking a parliamentary investigation.

Clip [00:04:55] Predominantly 100%. Is he a protection guru?

Clip [00:04:55] Predominantly 100%. Is he a protection guru?

Jeremy Page [00:05:00] He said the Prime Minister is 100% protecting this man and that Adani acquired India’s assets through corruption and provide support to the BJP. Again, those are allegations that Adani denies. This scandal also puts pressure on India’s judiciary and regulatory authorities. Fresh case is now being filed in the Supreme Court over the market regulator’s handling of those earlier allegations from the short seller. And the regulator is now considering whether it should open a fresh probe into these US bribery allegations.

Jeremy Page [00:05:00] He said the Prime Minister is 100% protecting this man and that Adani acquired India’s assets through corruption and provide support to the BJP. Again, those are allegations that Adani denies. This scandal also puts pressure on India’s judiciary and regulatory authorities. Fresh case is now being filed in the Supreme Court over the market regulator’s handling of those earlier allegations from the short seller. And the regulator is now considering whether it should open a fresh probe into these US bribery allegations.

Rosie Blau [00:05:34] And does it put pressure on Modi himself?

Rosie Blau [00:05:34] And does it put pressure on Modi himself?

Jeremy Page [00:05:37] Yes, I think it does, because before this, he was already facing a much more complicated political landscape given the general election results back in June. He now has to make many more compromises with coalition partners in his government. The economy is slowing. He’s also been under pressure from within his own political camp as the RSS, which is the Hindu nationalist organisation from which the BJP emerged, has been unusually critical of Modi’s leadership, albeit obliquely, in the last few months. And that has intensified a sort of quiet contest among potential successors to Mr. Modi. Now, BJP leaders will be happy that their electoral machine is back on track. They just want a big victory in the state of Maharashtra, which is India’s richest state. But Modi himself is not really getting the credit for that. He didn’t do much campaigning there. And the win is being attributed much more to handouts by the local government and a big voter outreach campaign from the RSS. So as this Adani scandal unfolds, I think Modi’s political prospects look increasingly problematic.

Jeremy Page [00:05:37] Yes, I think it does, because before this, he was already facing a much more complicated political landscape given the general election results back in June. He now has to make many more compromises with coalition partners in his government. The economy is slowing. He’s also been under pressure from within his own political camp as the RSS, which is the Hindu nationalist organisation from which the BJP emerged, has been unusually critical of Modi’s leadership, albeit obliquely, in the last few months. And that has intensified a sort of quiet contest among potential successors to Mr. Modi. Now, BJP leaders will be happy that their electoral machine is back on track. They just want a big victory in the state of Maharashtra, which is India’s richest state. But Modi himself is not really getting the credit for that. He didn’t do much campaigning there. And the win is being attributed much more to handouts by the local government and a big voter outreach campaign from the RSS. So as this Adani scandal unfolds, I think Modi’s political prospects look increasingly problematic.

Rosie Blau [00:06:47] And how will this affect relationships between the US and India, given that the actual allegations of bribery came from a US prosecutor?

Rosie Blau [00:06:47] And how will this affect relationships between the US and India, given that the actual allegations of bribery came from a US prosecutor?

Jeremy Page [00:06:58] I think it’s fair to say it will cause some tension with the Biden administration. But both Modi and Adani are probably hoping that Donald Trump will somehow make the case go away, or at least not. Too much pressure on the Indian government to cooperate, for example, by extraditing Mr. Adani. And they may be right in making that calculation, but there is still a lot that could happen between now and Trump’s inauguration. More information could come out through official and official channels. There could also be leaks after Trump takes office. And now that the allegations are there, other affected parties could also take their own legal action. More broadly, I think the case will bring much greater scrutiny of India’s entire business environment, and that could make it harder for foreign companies to invest here. It could make it harder for Indian companies to raise funds in the US. And then there are individual projects that could also be affected, including Adani’s plans to invest $10 billion in energy and infrastructure in the US. There’s a reported deal for Adani to operate an airport in Kenya that the Kenyan president cancelled last week after the indictment came out. So I think this case really raises some very serious questions about one of the central pillars of the Modi brand, which is that he has made India less corrupt and a better place to do business. So there is no doubt that this is damaging to Modi’s image at home and abroad. The extent of that damage will become clearer, I think, after Trump’s inauguration.

Jeremy Page [00:06:58] I think it’s fair to say it will cause some tension with the Biden administration. But both Modi and Adani are probably hoping that Donald Trump will somehow make the case go away, or at least not. Too much pressure on the Indian government to cooperate, for example, by extraditing Mr. Adani. And they may be right in making that calculation, but there is still a lot that could happen between now and Trump’s inauguration. More information could come out through official and official channels. There could also be leaks after Trump takes office. And now that the allegations are there, other affected parties could also take their own legal action. More broadly, I think the case will bring much greater scrutiny of India’s entire business environment, and that could make it harder for foreign companies to invest here. It could make it harder for Indian companies to raise funds in the US. And then there are individual projects that could also be affected, including Adani’s plans to invest $10 billion in energy and infrastructure in the US. There’s a reported deal for Adani to operate an airport in Kenya that the Kenyan president cancelled last week after the indictment came out. So I think this case really raises some very serious questions about one of the central pillars of the Modi brand, which is that he has made India less corrupt and a better place to do business. So there is no doubt that this is damaging to Modi’s image at home and abroad. The extent of that damage will become clearer, I think, after Trump’s inauguration.

Rosie Blau [00:08:36] Jeremy, thank you so much. Fascinating story.

Rosie Blau [00:08:36] Jeremy, thank you so much. Fascinating story.

Rosie Blau [00:08:40] And you can hear more about Narendra modi’s India in the Modi Raj. Our eight part series broadcast earlier this year and available to all subscribers on Thursday. Our Money talk show will discuss the astonishing rise of India’s stock market.

Rosie Blau [00:08:40] And you can hear more about Narendra modi’s India in the Modi Raj. Our eight part series broadcast earlier this year and available to all subscribers on Thursday. Our Money talk show will discuss the astonishing rise of India’s stock market.

Don Weinland [00:09:04] Last month, they travelled by train to loyal a city of 7 million people in central China.

Don Weinland [00:09:04] Last month, they travelled by train to loyal a city of 7 million people in central China.

Jason Palmer [00:09:10] Don Wineland is our China business and finance editor.

Jason Palmer [00:09:10] Don Wineland is our China business and finance editor.

Don Weinland [00:09:13] As you’re arriving, you pass through a district called Eben, row after row of towering apartment blocks. But it’s pretty clear that not many people live in this area. The government is facing a massive housing crisis, and part of that is because developers have overbuilt and there are too many houses on the market.

Don Weinland [00:09:13] As you’re arriving, you pass through a district called Eben, row after row of towering apartment blocks. But it’s pretty clear that not many people live in this area. The government is facing a massive housing crisis, and part of that is because developers have overbuilt and there are too many houses on the market.

Jason Palmer [00:09:37] And we’ve spoken a few times on the show over the past few years about that problem. But give me a quick part of history. How did trying to get here?

Jason Palmer [00:09:37] And we’ve spoken a few times on the show over the past few years about that problem. But give me a quick part of history. How did trying to get here?

Don Weinland [00:09:44] China’s been building a lot of houses for a long time, for the past 15, 20 years. And it became clear in 2020 to the government that they had to put a stop to this. So they tightened up regulations that were allowing these developers to build endlessly. And since then, we’ve seen very slowly parts of this industry fall apart. So first, some of the largest developers, Evergrande is one of them, defaulted. And slowly but surely, others have followed. And now we’re at a point where housing sales and housing prices continue to come down. The market has not found a bottom yet, and part of this problem is connected to the huge excess amount of houses on the market. One of the main reasons the government intervened was because housing developers were racking up massive amounts of debt. This is part of their business model. And the restrictions that the government put in at the time in 2020 tightened up their ability to continue to take on massive amounts of debt.

Don Weinland [00:09:44] China’s been building a lot of houses for a long time, for the past 15, 20 years. And it became clear in 2020 to the government that they had to put a stop to this. So they tightened up regulations that were allowing these developers to build endlessly. And since then, we’ve seen very slowly parts of this industry fall apart. So first, some of the largest developers, Evergrande is one of them, defaulted. And slowly but surely, others have followed. And now we’re at a point where housing sales and housing prices continue to come down. The market has not found a bottom yet, and part of this problem is connected to the huge excess amount of houses on the market. One of the main reasons the government intervened was because housing developers were racking up massive amounts of debt. This is part of their business model. And the restrictions that the government put in at the time in 2020 tightened up their ability to continue to take on massive amounts of debt.

Jason Palmer [00:10:51] And so after this process has slowed down, if not stopped, then what is the scope of the problem now?

Jason Palmer [00:10:51] And so after this process has slowed down, if not stopped, then what is the scope of the problem now?

Don Weinland [00:10:57] It really depends on what problem you’re looking at. So I went to Loyang to look at empty flats and that is one of the biggest problems. So in Loyang it would take eight years to sell off all of the excess homes in the city. If developers stopped building homes now. So you can kind of get a sense of the scale and this varies around the country. In July, there were around two point 8,000,000,000m² of unsold homes. So that’s 27 million homes sitting on the market. There’s another type of home that experts look at to understand this crisis, and that’s idle homes or homes that have been purchased as investments but not lived in. And that figure could be as high as 40 million. So we’re looking at something like 70 to 80 million flats that simply are not being used. And that’s a big problem when you are looking at a housing market that needs to continue to build homes in order to generate economic activity.

Don Weinland [00:10:57] It really depends on what problem you’re looking at. So I went to Loyang to look at empty flats and that is one of the biggest problems. So in Loyang it would take eight years to sell off all of the excess homes in the city. If developers stopped building homes now. So you can kind of get a sense of the scale and this varies around the country. In July, there were around two point 8,000,000,000m² of unsold homes. So that’s 27 million homes sitting on the market. There’s another type of home that experts look at to understand this crisis, and that’s idle homes or homes that have been purchased as investments but not lived in. And that figure could be as high as 40 million. So we’re looking at something like 70 to 80 million flats that simply are not being used. And that’s a big problem when you are looking at a housing market that needs to continue to build homes in order to generate economic activity.

Jason Palmer [00:11:54] But there’s a tension there. You’re saying a problem is that there is a boatload of empty homes, but there’s also a problem in the China needs to keep building homes just to keep the economy ticking over.

Jason Palmer [00:11:54] But there’s a tension there. You’re saying a problem is that there is a boatload of empty homes, but there’s also a problem in the China needs to keep building homes just to keep the economy ticking over.

Don Weinland [00:12:04] Exactly. So this gets to one of the fundamental contradictions within the Chinese economy. Local governments rely on leasing out their land to generate revenues, and a lot of economic activity has been generated by the building and selling of homes. So when you have this many homes on the market, it really gets in the way of how the economy has worked for many, many years.

Don Weinland [00:12:04] Exactly. So this gets to one of the fundamental contradictions within the Chinese economy. Local governments rely on leasing out their land to generate revenues, and a lot of economic activity has been generated by the building and selling of homes. So when you have this many homes on the market, it really gets in the way of how the economy has worked for many, many years.

Jason Palmer [00:12:31] So what’s the fix then? What’s the policy answer to this?

Jason Palmer [00:12:31] So what’s the fix then? What’s the policy answer to this?

Don Weinland [00:12:34] Well, the main approach right now is for the government to buy up a lot of these homes. Over the past couple of months, the government has created a re lending facility worth ¥300 billion. So that’s about $42 billion that will be available for local governments and state owned enterprises to come in and buy these homes and then convert them into social housing lower in cost and available to low income people. So that’s one way of clearing out a lot of this stock. Cities around the country have different ways of dealing with this. There are some places that are trying to get people to move from old homes into new homes. So that’s one way of getting rid of some of these new homes. There’s a lot of different ideas. Nothing particularly successful at this point, but a lot of different measures are being put in place after this trip to Loyang. I got the feeling that extra funds from the government would certainly be welcome in a place like this.

Don Weinland [00:12:34] Well, the main approach right now is for the government to buy up a lot of these homes. Over the past couple of months, the government has created a re lending facility worth ¥300 billion. So that’s about $42 billion that will be available for local governments and state owned enterprises to come in and buy these homes and then convert them into social housing lower in cost and available to low income people. So that’s one way of clearing out a lot of this stock. Cities around the country have different ways of dealing with this. There are some places that are trying to get people to move from old homes into new homes. So that’s one way of getting rid of some of these new homes. There’s a lot of different ideas. Nothing particularly successful at this point, but a lot of different measures are being put in place after this trip to Loyang. I got the feeling that extra funds from the government would certainly be welcome in a place like this.

Jason Palmer [00:13:35] In the sense that it seems to be working in Lien.

Jason Palmer [00:13:35] In the sense that it seems to be working in Lien.

Don Weinland [00:13:38] This was my third trip to Loyang and I have to say there are some signs of life in this district. People are moving into some of these homes, but I don’t think any of the most recent plans from the government have really moved the needle much in this place. So some of the things we’ve seen recently have been lowering mortgages, lowering down payments, relaxing certain sales restrictions. To be perfectly honest, Loyang doesn’t really have a lot of these sales restrictions. If you want to buy in this place, you certainly can. So I don’t think any of these new measures are really changing things that much on the ground in Loy Yang at this point.

Don Weinland [00:13:38] This was my third trip to Loyang and I have to say there are some signs of life in this district. People are moving into some of these homes, but I don’t think any of the most recent plans from the government have really moved the needle much in this place. So some of the things we’ve seen recently have been lowering mortgages, lowering down payments, relaxing certain sales restrictions. To be perfectly honest, Loyang doesn’t really have a lot of these sales restrictions. If you want to buy in this place, you certainly can. So I don’t think any of these new measures are really changing things that much on the ground in Loy Yang at this point.

Jason Palmer [00:14:17] So in that sense, is Loy Yang a good place to look at to see how China as a whole is dealing with this problem? Is it a good representative sample?

Jason Palmer [00:14:17] So in that sense, is Loy Yang a good place to look at to see how China as a whole is dealing with this problem? Is it a good representative sample?

Don Weinland [00:14:25] The problems facing Loy Yang are faced across the country. Loy Yang is particularly bad, but from what we can tell so far, the government might not be. Doing enough to restart the housing market. The current plans don’t do a whole lot to address another major problem you see on the ground in Loyang, and that is the problem of homes that have been sold, but they haven’t been completed. Local governments don’t really seem very interested in buying up these unsold homes. They can’t really make a lot of money from doing this. When they borrow from the central government, they also have to pay interest and they really can’t even make up that interest by converting homes into social housing. So that’s a really big problem. We can see earlier this year that local governments only used 4% of the ¥300 billion that was made available. This has left a lot of experts wondering just how long it’s going to take to buy up all of these empty homes.

Don Weinland [00:14:25] The problems facing Loy Yang are faced across the country. Loy Yang is particularly bad, but from what we can tell so far, the government might not be. Doing enough to restart the housing market. The current plans don’t do a whole lot to address another major problem you see on the ground in Loyang, and that is the problem of homes that have been sold, but they haven’t been completed. Local governments don’t really seem very interested in buying up these unsold homes. They can’t really make a lot of money from doing this. When they borrow from the central government, they also have to pay interest and they really can’t even make up that interest by converting homes into social housing. So that’s a really big problem. We can see earlier this year that local governments only used 4% of the ¥300 billion that was made available. This has left a lot of experts wondering just how long it’s going to take to buy up all of these empty homes.

Jason Palmer [00:15:25] But what you suggested earlier is that this is a kind of undermining of a long running Chinese economic model. And I guess what I’m hearing is that perhaps a new model has to be developed. Is there a path out that doesn’t actually deal with the problem at hand?

Jason Palmer [00:15:25] But what you suggested earlier is that this is a kind of undermining of a long running Chinese economic model. And I guess what I’m hearing is that perhaps a new model has to be developed. Is there a path out that doesn’t actually deal with the problem at hand?

Don Weinland [00:15:39] Yes, there is a way out, and that is to transition to building something else, to manufacturing and exporting something else, probably. But that takes a long time. And not every city can become something like a Detroit where they’re building electric vehicles or something like that. And there are a lot of inland cities in China that simply can’t find another source of economic growth.

Don Weinland [00:15:39] Yes, there is a way out, and that is to transition to building something else, to manufacturing and exporting something else, probably. But that takes a long time. And not every city can become something like a Detroit where they’re building electric vehicles or something like that. And there are a lot of inland cities in China that simply can’t find another source of economic growth.

Jason Palmer [00:16:05] And even if they do, it seems as if there are going to be plenty of places in China where there are just endless rows of empty houses.

Jason Palmer [00:16:05] And even if they do, it seems as if there are going to be plenty of places in China where there are just endless rows of empty houses.

Don Weinland [00:16:12] Yes, it’s a problem that does not have an easy answer. And when you have something like eight years of stock in a city, there’s really nothing that can be done immediately to solve this problem. The longer this drags on, the worse consumer sentiment gets in this country. So somewhere between 60 and 70% of household wealth is tied up in housing as investments. So if they can’t find the bottom of the market and start pushing prices back up slightly or at least stabilise prices, sentiment in this country is just going to continue to get worse. And that is really at the heart of what the government is worried about.

Don Weinland [00:16:12] Yes, it’s a problem that does not have an easy answer. And when you have something like eight years of stock in a city, there’s really nothing that can be done immediately to solve this problem. The longer this drags on, the worse consumer sentiment gets in this country. So somewhere between 60 and 70% of household wealth is tied up in housing as investments. So if they can’t find the bottom of the market and start pushing prices back up slightly or at least stabilise prices, sentiment in this country is just going to continue to get worse. And that is really at the heart of what the government is worried about.

Jason Palmer [00:16:52] Dawn, thanks very much for joining us.

Jason Palmer [00:16:52] Dawn, thanks very much for joining us.

Don Weinland [00:16:54] Thank you.

Catherine Nixey [00:17:12] Jordan Peterson’s new book is titled We Wrestle with God. It’s not absolutely clear immediately what God has done to deserve this fight. Katherine Nixey is a Britain correspondent for The Economist. So what he doesn’t book is he takes all the big hits of the Bible and then he retells them. But using a kind of Jordan Peterson ish mix of theology, psychology and, of course, Disney. So he retells the story of Cain and Abel, but likens it to the story of The Lion King, in which one brother fights another. And he likens the story of Adam and Eve to Beauty and the Beast. And then the next thing that becomes clear is that Mr. Peterson’s much, much bigger wrestle is with the English language itself. His prose has always been hard to read. Even academics find it hard to read. An early review of one of his books called it a Tome. If you open it at random, your eye will invariably light on phrases such as this one. The modern, better Marxists the postmodern power players have, as it were, Metastasised Marx. So good news if you enjoyed that, because there’s about 500 more pages where that came from. Peterson is a famous contrarian. He has had fights with more or less everyone. He’s had fights with students over free speech. He’s had fights with feminists over whether you can compare lobsters to men. My big problem with the lobsters is that it’s scientifically bollocks. Recently, he had a fight with Richard Dawkins, a biologist, over whether or not dragons are real.

Catherine Nixey [00:17:12] Jordan Peterson’s new book is titled We Wrestle with God. It’s not absolutely clear immediately what God has done to deserve this fight. Katherine Nixey is a Britain correspondent for The Economist. So what he doesn’t book is he takes all the big hits of the Bible and then he retells them. But using a kind of Jordan Peterson ish mix of theology, psychology and, of course, Disney. So he retells the story of Cain and Abel, but likens it to the story of The Lion King, in which one brother fights another. And he likens the story of Adam and Eve to Beauty and the Beast. And then the next thing that becomes clear is that Mr. Peterson’s much, much bigger wrestle is with the English language itself. His prose has always been hard to read. Even academics find it hard to read. An early review of one of his books called it a Tome. If you open it at random, your eye will invariably light on phrases such as this one. The modern, better Marxists the postmodern power players have, as it were, Metastasised Marx. So good news if you enjoyed that, because there’s about 500 more pages where that came from. Peterson is a famous contrarian. He has had fights with more or less everyone. He’s had fights with students over free speech. He’s had fights with feminists over whether you can compare lobsters to men. My big problem with the lobsters is that it’s scientifically bollocks. Recently, he had a fight with Richard Dawkins, a biologist, over whether or not dragons are real.

Clip [00:18:46] Vikings fighting, saying, Come in your life. I’m not interested in dragons. I’m interested in reality.

Clip [00:18:46] Vikings fighting, saying, Come in your life. I’m not interested in dragons. I’m interested in reality.

Catherine Nixey [00:18:54] And largely because of these fights, Mr. Peterson has gone from academic obscurity to infamy. His most famous work is 12 Rules for Life, a sinew stiffening self-help book that offers a really strange mix of humdrum domesticity and existential philosophy. It’s a bit like nothing had been mixed with nature and then started barking orders at you. Stand up straight. Shoulders back. Consider the existential void of modernity. If it funds a legion, his detractors are possibly even more numerous. Millions dislike him. Academics at the University of Toronto signed an open letter requesting that the university take away his position, in part due to his objection to being required to use gender neutral pronouns. Did you all enjoy it?

Catherine Nixey [00:18:54] And largely because of these fights, Mr. Peterson has gone from academic obscurity to infamy. His most famous work is 12 Rules for Life, a sinew stiffening self-help book that offers a really strange mix of humdrum domesticity and existential philosophy. It’s a bit like nothing had been mixed with nature and then started barking orders at you. Stand up straight. Shoulders back. Consider the existential void of modernity. If it funds a legion, his detractors are possibly even more numerous. Millions dislike him. Academics at the University of Toronto signed an open letter requesting that the university take away his position, in part due to his objection to being required to use gender neutral pronouns. Did you all enjoy it?

Catherine Nixey [00:19:37] Okay. And have you seen him talk?

Catherine Nixey [00:19:37] Okay. And have you seen him talk?

Clip [00:19:39] This is my first time. I’ve never seen him like this. First time I’ve seen him when I do follow him.

Clip [00:19:39] This is my first time. I’ve never seen him like this. First time I’ve seen him when I do follow him.

Catherine Nixey [00:19:44] Right. I went to see him give a talk for his new book in New York. And the crowd there were very adoring. People often say watching Peterson is like watching a religious revival meeting. And it really is. He looks a little bit like a pastor. He was wearing a linen strip suit. It’s like a sermon from a Victorian vicar. It’s a very strange experience, but everyone seemed absolutely thrilled. So I spoke to one woman who said that she felt she gave people hope, which in a way it was kind of funny because he was talking all about depressing things.

Catherine Nixey [00:19:44] Right. I went to see him give a talk for his new book in New York. And the crowd there were very adoring. People often say watching Peterson is like watching a religious revival meeting. And it really is. He looks a little bit like a pastor. He was wearing a linen strip suit. It’s like a sermon from a Victorian vicar. It’s a very strange experience, but everyone seemed absolutely thrilled. So I spoke to one woman who said that she felt she gave people hope, which in a way it was kind of funny because he was talking all about depressing things.

Clip [00:20:14] It feels like my sons look at them. They get judged on toxic masculinity for being boys. They’re not allowed to be boys anymore. So it kind of gives them hope in a world where they’re judged on being toxic masculinity all the time.

Clip [00:20:14] It feels like my sons look at them. They get judged on toxic masculinity for being boys. They’re not allowed to be boys anymore. So it kind of gives them hope in a world where they’re judged on being toxic masculinity all the time.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:32] Something you can learn. I spoke to somebody else who felt that he was a valuable asset to the culture wars because he said things that nobody else would say. He was courageous enough to break social taboos.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:32] Something you can learn. I spoke to somebody else who felt that he was a valuable asset to the culture wars because he said things that nobody else would say. He was courageous enough to break social taboos.

Clip [00:20:43] There’s no goal to appease anyone. It’s true. Honest speech. And if you don’t like it, then you don’t like it. And you’re free to say that. But he’s going to say what he likes.

Clip [00:20:43] There’s no goal to appease anyone. It’s true. Honest speech. And if you don’t like it, then you don’t like it. And you’re free to say that. But he’s going to say what he likes.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:50] And do you think that’s refreshing in your kind of what seems to me.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:50] And do you think that’s refreshing in your kind of what seems to me.

Clip [00:20:53] That’s the most refreshing thing? Yeah.

Clip [00:20:53] That’s the most refreshing thing? Yeah.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:55] Okay. So it’s not per say that you agree with what he says on certain issues, that he is speaking out in a world of conformity.

Catherine Nixey [00:20:55] Okay. So it’s not per say that you agree with what he says on certain issues, that he is speaking out in a world of conformity.

Clip [00:21:03] Yeah, like that. He’s willing to say something that may cause him flak in an honest way and make it as reasonable and approachable to understand as possible.

Clip [00:21:03] Yeah, like that. He’s willing to say something that may cause him flak in an honest way and make it as reasonable and approachable to understand as possible.

Catherine Nixey [00:21:11] And that’s a kind of widely held opinion. And he has indeed been courageous in times in his career.

Catherine Nixey [00:21:11] And that’s a kind of widely held opinion. And he has indeed been courageous in times in his career.

Clip [00:21:15] You can look at him.

Catherine Nixey [00:21:21] And it’s not just the books and the door. There is an entire Peterson industry for those who want to buy into it. So there’s a Jordan Peterson newsletter called Mondays of Meaning. There’s a Peterson Academy $500. The year gets you lectures on manly things from people with beards. And there’s a self authoring program that he co-founded. People who spend time writing about themselves thoughtfully, it promises become happier, less anxious and depressed. Indeed. Just ask Ernest Hemingway or Virginia Woolf. Or for that matter, Jordan Peterson. When I saw him in New York at the climax of the evening’s talk, his voice cracked with emotion. And he’s famous for weaving in speeches. Obviously, intellectual smoke at this YouTube offers a video compilation of Jordan Peterson crying at anything and everything. Mr. Peterson seems to fill a kind of God shaped hole in modern culture. He uses big words that sound meaningful and give people hope, even if some of what he says can be a bit glum. On the stage in New York, he spoke for well over an hour about pain, death, the void and the full existential catastrophe of life. His audience went into the November night looking absolutely delighted.

Catherine Nixey [00:21:21] And it’s not just the books and the door. There is an entire Peterson industry for those who want to buy into it. So there’s a Jordan Peterson newsletter called Mondays of Meaning. There’s a Peterson Academy $500. The year gets you lectures on manly things from people with beards. And there’s a self authoring program that he co-founded. People who spend time writing about themselves thoughtfully, it promises become happier, less anxious and depressed. Indeed. Just ask Ernest Hemingway or Virginia Woolf. Or for that matter, Jordan Peterson. When I saw him in New York at the climax of the evening’s talk, his voice cracked with emotion. And he’s famous for weaving in speeches. Obviously, intellectual smoke at this YouTube offers a video compilation of Jordan Peterson crying at anything and everything. Mr. Peterson seems to fill a kind of God shaped hole in modern culture. He uses big words that sound meaningful and give people hope, even if some of what he says can be a bit glum. On the stage in New York, he spoke for well over an hour about pain, death, the void and the full existential catastrophe of life. His audience went into the November night looking absolutely delighted.

Rosie Blau [00:22:46] Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:22:46] Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

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