Should people have the right to choose how they die? Though many Britons support the principle, a vote on assisted dying in the House of Commons may fail. Donald Trump reshaped the Supreme Court in his first term. His second act could be just as dramatic (09:30). And remembering figurative painter Frank Auerbach (18:10). Runtime: 25 min

Should people have the <a href="https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/11/21/why-british-mps-should-vote-for-assisted-dying?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">right to choose</a> how they die? Though many Britons support the principle, a vote on assisted dying in the House of Commons may fail. Donald Trump reshaped the <a href="https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/10/28/donald-trumps-potential-scotus-picks?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">Supreme Court</a> in his first term. His second act could be just as dramatic (09:30). And remembering figurative painter <a href="https://www.economist.com/obituary/2024/11/20/frank-auerbach-aimed-only-at-one-memorable-image?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">Frank Auerbach</a> (18:10). Runtime: 25 min

Listen on: <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/babbage-from-the-economist/id508376907">Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/0BCUrdrOb3tvfIwazeLBUH?si=nJxIwIpZSp6Yfx6ObmnfhA&dl_branch=1&nd=1">Spotify</a>

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—subscribe to Economist Podcasts+

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—<a href="https://subscribenow.economist.com/podcasts-plus" target="_blank">subscribe to Economist Podcasts+</a>

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account.

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our <a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/What-is-Economist-Podcasts">FAQs page</a> or watch <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczo71bg1uY">our video </a>explaining how to link your account.

The Intelligence

Why British MPs should back assisted dying

Campaigners in Parliament Square in favour of the proposed bill to legalise assisted dying

Assisted dying: why Britain should back a change

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at podcasts@economist.com.

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at <a href="https://podcasts@economist.com/">podcasts@economist.com</a>.

<a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-we-handle-AI-generated-content">Read more about how we are using AI</a>.

Rosie Blau [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m your host, Rosie Blau. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. Donald Trump has already influenced the Supreme Court and American society with the justices he appointed during his first term as president. What might happen the second time around? And Frank Auerbach arrived in Britain as a child refugee from Nazi Germany. He spent the rest of his life trying to fix what he saw around him in paint, often returning again and again to the same images. Our obituaries editor remembers him. But first. Should people have the right to choose how they die? The Economist has long argued that a liberal society should let someone who is suffering make a dignified decision about how to end their life. Parts of the world do allow that some people who are terminally ill can legally receive such help. But not in Britain. A week from today, MPs will have a chance to change that. They will vote on a bill that would be a first step to legalizing assisted dying in England and Wales. Previously, most MPs had said they would support such a law. Now many are wavering, including Britain’s health secretary, Wes Streeting, who says he won’t back it.

Rosie Blau [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m your host, Rosie Blau. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. Donald Trump has already influenced the Supreme Court and American society with the justices he appointed during his first term as president. What might happen the second time around? And Frank Auerbach arrived in Britain as a child refugee from Nazi Germany. He spent the rest of his life trying to fix what he saw around him in paint, often returning again and again to the same images. Our obituaries editor remembers him. But first. Should people have the right to choose how they die? The Economist has long argued that a liberal society should let someone who is suffering make a dignified decision about how to end their life. Parts of the world do allow that some people who are terminally ill can legally receive such help. But not in Britain. A week from today, MPs will have a chance to change that. They will vote on a bill that would be a first step to legalizing assisted dying in England and Wales. Previously, most MPs had said they would support such a law. Now many are wavering, including Britain’s health secretary, Wes Streeting, who says he won’t back it.

Clip [00:01:56] I’ve made it clear that I’ll be voting against the assisted dying bill this time. That’s mainly because I don’t.

Clip [00:01:56] I’ve made it clear that I’ll be voting against the assisted dying bill this time. That’s mainly because I don’t.

Speaker 2 [00:02:03] Some oppose it on grounds of principle. Many think it will be expensive. But there are also those who worry about what has happened in other countries.

Speaker 2 [00:02:03] Some oppose it on grounds of principle. Many think it will be expensive. But there are also those who worry about what has happened in other countries.

Georgia Banjo [00:02:14] Often when opponents of assisted dying talk about this issue, they point to Canada as an example of the slippery slope.

Georgia Banjo [00:02:14] Often when opponents of assisted dying talk about this issue, they point to Canada as an example of the slippery slope.

Rosie Blau [00:02:21] Georgia Banjo is a Britain correspondent.

Rosie Blau [00:02:21] Georgia Banjo is a Britain correspondent.

Georgia Banjo [00:02:24] The idea is that this law has widened over time and that lots and lots more people are now choosing to end their lives this way. But I don’t think that’s a great comparison because Canada’s law was always relatively more expansive than the bill that’s being proposed in England and Wales. And we know if you look at states in America, Australia and also New Zealand, they have all passed assisted dying laws which are restricted to the time, Neal, and we have not yet seen any of them broaden.

Georgia Banjo [00:02:24] The idea is that this law has widened over time and that lots and lots more people are now choosing to end their lives this way. But I don’t think that’s a great comparison because Canada’s law was always relatively more expansive than the bill that’s being proposed in England and Wales. And we know if you look at states in America, Australia and also New Zealand, they have all passed assisted dying laws which are restricted to the time, Neal, and we have not yet seen any of them broaden.

Rosie Blau [00:02:56] So how similar is the bill proposed in England and Wales to the one that has raised anxieties, the one in Canada?

Rosie Blau [00:02:56] So how similar is the bill proposed in England and Wales to the one that has raised anxieties, the one in Canada?

Georgia Banjo [00:03:03] The proposed law is a lot more restrictive. Say essentially you’ve got to be terminally ill. You’ve got to have less than six months to live. You need two doctors independently of one another to agree that you’re of sound mind, that you don’t have any mental health conditions which might influence your choice. This approval also needs to then be approved by a High Court judge. He is specifically tasked with looking for any signs that you’ve been coerced into the choice, say the MP who’s responsible for drafting this bill is Kim Leadbeater. who’s a Labor MP and I went to meet with her recently to talk about it.

Georgia Banjo [00:03:03] The proposed law is a lot more restrictive. Say essentially you’ve got to be terminally ill. You’ve got to have less than six months to live. You need two doctors independently of one another to agree that you’re of sound mind, that you don’t have any mental health conditions which might influence your choice. This approval also needs to then be approved by a High Court judge. He is specifically tasked with looking for any signs that you’ve been coerced into the choice, say the MP who’s responsible for drafting this bill is Kim Leadbeater. who’s a Labor MP and I went to meet with her recently to talk about it.

Kim Leadbeater [00:03:41] So for me, the best models were Australia and America. So various different states in Australia, in America.

Kim Leadbeater [00:03:41] So for me, the best models were Australia and America. So various different states in Australia, in America.

Georgia Banjo [00:03:47] Her bill is extremely similar to a law passed in Victoria. That’s a state in Australia in 2017. That law is already the most restrictive in the world. There is a difference in terms of who gives the final approval. In Victoria it’s a senior civil servant who signs off. In Kim Leadbeater’s bill, it’s a High Court judge. And I think a concern about that is we know that in the UK capacity in courts is really stretched. So I wanted to hear what Leadbeater had to say about that.

Georgia Banjo [00:03:47] Her bill is extremely similar to a law passed in Victoria. That’s a state in Australia in 2017. That law is already the most restrictive in the world. There is a difference in terms of who gives the final approval. In Victoria it’s a senior civil servant who signs off. In Kim Leadbeater’s bill, it’s a High Court judge. And I think a concern about that is we know that in the UK capacity in courts is really stretched. So I wanted to hear what Leadbeater had to say about that.

Kim Leadbeater [00:04:17] I didn’t want it to be a tick box exercise. I didn’t want it to be. There’s the paperwork. Yes, everything’s been signed. Tick, tick, tick. And, you know, off you go. But I also really wanted that third layer of safeguarding to be in place. I think that just gives this bill an extra level of protection. And I do firmly believe it’s the right thing to do.

Kim Leadbeater [00:04:17] I didn’t want it to be a tick box exercise. I didn’t want it to be. There’s the paperwork. Yes, everything’s been signed. Tick, tick, tick. And, you know, off you go. But I also really wanted that third layer of safeguarding to be in place. I think that just gives this bill an extra level of protection. And I do firmly believe it’s the right thing to do.

Georgia Banjo [00:04:37] In spite of these small differences. I think Victoria’s law shows is that a law like this can be implemented safely and effectively. And we know that even though it’s been going for five and a half years now, assisted deaths in Victoria are only about 1% of total deaths. We know that three quarters of these deaths are cancer related and we also know that the median age of a patient is 73.

Georgia Banjo [00:04:37] In spite of these small differences. I think Victoria’s law shows is that a law like this can be implemented safely and effectively. And we know that even though it’s been going for five and a half years now, assisted deaths in Victoria are only about 1% of total deaths. We know that three quarters of these deaths are cancer related and we also know that the median age of a patient is 73.

Rosie Blau [00:05:05] So the question about whether an assisted dying bill might end up being a slippery slope is just one anxiety. Another of them is that an ill person might be coerced by family members or other people.

Rosie Blau [00:05:05] So the question about whether an assisted dying bill might end up being a slippery slope is just one anxiety. Another of them is that an ill person might be coerced by family members or other people.

Georgia Banjo [00:05:19] Sure. And I think that’s a really scary idea, right, that a vulnerable dying person could be coerced into such a decision. So I was really keen to put that to people I met in Australia and I spoke to quite a few doctors who take part in the process and none of them said they’d ever seen a hint of coercion in the people they’re talking to. In the cases they’ve been involved with. Indeed, one doctor, Dr. Anna Negus in Western Australia, said it’s the opposite. It’s not only families trying to talk people out of it.

Georgia Banjo [00:05:19] Sure. And I think that’s a really scary idea, right, that a vulnerable dying person could be coerced into such a decision. So I was really keen to put that to people I met in Australia and I spoke to quite a few doctors who take part in the process and none of them said they’d ever seen a hint of coercion in the people they’re talking to. In the cases they’ve been involved with. Indeed, one doctor, Dr. Anna Negus in Western Australia, said it’s the opposite. It’s not only families trying to talk people out of it.

Rosie Blau [00:05:49] Another of the issues that comes up is that we need an assisted dying bill because somehow we’re not doing enough to make the end of life comfortable in other ways.

Rosie Blau [00:05:49] Another of the issues that comes up is that we need an assisted dying bill because somehow we’re not doing enough to make the end of life comfortable in other ways.

Georgia Banjo [00:06:00] Yeah. So this is the classic argument really now about palliative care, which has been raised by people like where streeting the health secretary. Again, this was something I really looked for in Victoria because I think the idea that someone’s doing that because they can’t get good care would be awful. But there’s no evidence that’s the case, so there’s no evidence that uptake is higher in areas where palliative care is patchier. And the other thing about Victoria is that now after a lot of controversy when the bill was being passed, the idea of assisted dying isn’t that controversial anymore.

Georgia Banjo [00:06:00] Yeah. So this is the classic argument really now about palliative care, which has been raised by people like where streeting the health secretary. Again, this was something I really looked for in Victoria because I think the idea that someone’s doing that because they can’t get good care would be awful. But there’s no evidence that’s the case, so there’s no evidence that uptake is higher in areas where palliative care is patchier. And the other thing about Victoria is that now after a lot of controversy when the bill was being passed, the idea of assisted dying isn’t that controversial anymore.

Rosie Blau [00:06:32] Most MPs in Britain support assisted dying in principle. According to all the surveys that we’ve done. What’s going to happen with this bill?

Rosie Blau [00:06:32] Most MPs in Britain support assisted dying in principle. According to all the surveys that we’ve done. What’s going to happen with this bill?

Georgia Banjo [00:06:42] Yeah, it’s a really strange thing because we may or may not support the principle, but it seems like some of them are wavering about whether they should vote for this bill. I think part of that has to do with the leadership of Keir Starmer. The Prime Minister say he also supports assisted dying, but he’s not handled this whole process very well. He hasn’t allowed enough time for a debate. He hasn’t helped Kim Leadbeater drafter legislation when I think that could have been possible. I think for her, if she’s as controversial as this, it’s important that always free votes. But I think what’s happened in this instance is that the Prime Minister’s been absent. The health secretary was treating has been actively opposed. And so that means that a lot of MPs, many of the NE after the election in July, are now having doubts. And again, if you compare this with Victoria’s experience, the Government was a lot more involved. The debate lasted, I think, over 100 hours. And here we’ve got a debate on a Friday afternoon and it will be maybe five hours. So you can see why opponents of the bill, some of them I’ve spoken to, like Rachael Maskell, he’s another MP. Think this whole thing’s been quite rushed.

Georgia Banjo [00:06:42] Yeah, it’s a really strange thing because we may or may not support the principle, but it seems like some of them are wavering about whether they should vote for this bill. I think part of that has to do with the leadership of Keir Starmer. The Prime Minister say he also supports assisted dying, but he’s not handled this whole process very well. He hasn’t allowed enough time for a debate. He hasn’t helped Kim Leadbeater drafter legislation when I think that could have been possible. I think for her, if she’s as controversial as this, it’s important that always free votes. But I think what’s happened in this instance is that the Prime Minister’s been absent. The health secretary was treating has been actively opposed. And so that means that a lot of MPs, many of the NE after the election in July, are now having doubts. And again, if you compare this with Victoria’s experience, the Government was a lot more involved. The debate lasted, I think, over 100 hours. And here we’ve got a debate on a Friday afternoon and it will be maybe five hours. So you can see why opponents of the bill, some of them I’ve spoken to, like Rachael Maskell, he’s another MP. Think this whole thing’s been quite rushed.

Rosie Blau [00:07:50] And do they have a point?

Rosie Blau [00:07:50] And do they have a point?

Georgia Banjo [00:07:51] Yeah. To be honest, I think they do. I think you can imagine a situation where this whole thing had been better planned where, again, if you look at the evidence, it’s pretty clear that such a restrictive bill can be passed safely. There’ll be plenty of time to work out the details later on. This way it’s meant to be about the principles. And as Leadbeater told me, the 29th of November is just the start of the parliamentary process. There’ll be time for scrutiny afterwards.

Georgia Banjo [00:07:51] Yeah. To be honest, I think they do. I think you can imagine a situation where this whole thing had been better planned where, again, if you look at the evidence, it’s pretty clear that such a restrictive bill can be passed safely. There’ll be plenty of time to work out the details later on. This way it’s meant to be about the principles. And as Leadbeater told me, the 29th of November is just the start of the parliamentary process. There’ll be time for scrutiny afterwards.

Rosie Blau [00:08:17] So if this assisted dying bill doesn’t pass, is assisted dying in Britain over?

Rosie Blau [00:08:17] So if this assisted dying bill doesn’t pass, is assisted dying in Britain over?

Georgia Banjo [00:08:24] It’s a really tough one. The last time this was debated was 2015. It’s been almost a decade since. I think Leadbeater thinks that, you know, this is the strictest bill so far that we’ve ever had. It’s got the most safeguards built into it. And actually, my fear is that if this bill does pass, it will be too restrictive. If it passes, it would be the strictest bill in the world. I think some of us would actually prefer to see a law with fewer safeguards and maybe there would be a chance to pass a law like that down the line when MPPs have really had the chance to look at the evidence. The rest scares. It’s actually the opposite of a slippery slope that actually what could happen if this bill passes is that we all end up in a straitjacket where it’s actually really hard for people to use this law. But I think regardless of the issues we have with this bill, clearly this is something we want to see pass.

Georgia Banjo [00:08:24] It’s a really tough one. The last time this was debated was 2015. It’s been almost a decade since. I think Leadbeater thinks that, you know, this is the strictest bill so far that we’ve ever had. It’s got the most safeguards built into it. And actually, my fear is that if this bill does pass, it will be too restrictive. If it passes, it would be the strictest bill in the world. I think some of us would actually prefer to see a law with fewer safeguards and maybe there would be a chance to pass a law like that down the line when MPPs have really had the chance to look at the evidence. The rest scares. It’s actually the opposite of a slippery slope that actually what could happen if this bill passes is that we all end up in a straitjacket where it’s actually really hard for people to use this law. But I think regardless of the issues we have with this bill, clearly this is something we want to see pass.

Rosie Blau [00:09:14] Georgia, thank you so much for joining me.

Rosie Blau [00:09:14] Georgia, thank you so much for joining me.

Georgia Banjo [00:09:16] Thank you so much, Rosie.

Georgia Banjo [00:09:16] Thank you so much, Rosie.

Rosie Blau [00:09:36] During his first term as president, Donald Trump reshaped America’s Supreme Court, appointing three justices to the nine member lineup.

Rosie Blau [00:09:36] During his first term as president, Donald Trump reshaped America’s Supreme Court, appointing three justices to the nine member lineup.

Clip [00:09:45] She is a woman of unparalleled achievement, towering intellect, sterling credentials, and unyielding loyalty to the Constitution. Judge Amy Coney Barrett. Tonight, it is my honor and privilege to announce that I will nominate Judge Brett Kavanaugh. Judge Gorsuch has outstanding legal skills, a brilliant mind, tremendous discipline, and has earned bipartisan.

Clip [00:09:45] She is a woman of unparalleled achievement, towering intellect, sterling credentials, and unyielding loyalty to the Constitution. Judge Amy Coney Barrett. Tonight, it is my honor and privilege to announce that I will nominate Judge Brett Kavanaugh. Judge Gorsuch has outstanding legal skills, a brilliant mind, tremendous discipline, and has earned bipartisan.

Rosie Blau [00:10:14] With two thirds of its judges conservative. The court has already made decisions that have changed American society. And in Trump’s second term. That shift could become even more pronounced.

Rosie Blau [00:10:14] With two thirds of its judges conservative. The court has already made decisions that have changed American society. And in Trump’s second term. That shift could become even more pronounced.

Stephen Mazie [00:10:28] By 2028, More than half of the nine justices on the Supreme Court could be appointed by Donald Trump.

Stephen Mazie [00:10:28] By 2028, More than half of the nine justices on the Supreme Court could be appointed by Donald Trump.

Rosie Blau [00:10:36] Stephen Macy writes about the Supreme Court.

Rosie Blau [00:10:36] Stephen Macy writes about the Supreme Court.

Stephen Mazie [00:10:40] That would mean one president would have appointed a majority of the court. And that is something that hasn’t happened in a very long time. And we should recall that America is unique in that justice is served for life. So there are many imprints that Donald Trump could leave on America, but his most profound and longest lasting legacy could well be reshaping the Supreme Court.

Stephen Mazie [00:10:40] That would mean one president would have appointed a majority of the court. And that is something that hasn’t happened in a very long time. And we should recall that America is unique in that justice is served for life. So there are many imprints that Donald Trump could leave on America, but his most profound and longest lasting legacy could well be reshaping the Supreme Court.

Rosie Blau [00:11:07] So just before we move on to the future, can you remind me what happened the last time Trump was in power? So after 2016?

Rosie Blau [00:11:07] So just before we move on to the future, can you remind me what happened the last time Trump was in power? So after 2016?

Stephen Mazie [00:11:14] Well, eight years ago, we had a balanced court. We had an eight member, 4 to 4 court. Justice Scalia had died that February, and Senate Republicans had refused to let Barack Obama fill his seat. So we knew an appointment was coming. And the person Donald Trump chose when he came into office early in 2017 was Neil Gorsuch. Between 2017 and 2020, Trump managed to appoint Neil Gorsuch and then Brett Kavanaugh in 2018. And as voting in the 2020 election was already underway. Amy Coney Barrett So as of October 27th, 2020, when Justice Barrett donned her robes, Trump had transformed a balanced court to a lopsided 623 conservative majority court.

Stephen Mazie [00:11:14] Well, eight years ago, we had a balanced court. We had an eight member, 4 to 4 court. Justice Scalia had died that February, and Senate Republicans had refused to let Barack Obama fill his seat. So we knew an appointment was coming. And the person Donald Trump chose when he came into office early in 2017 was Neil Gorsuch. Between 2017 and 2020, Trump managed to appoint Neil Gorsuch and then Brett Kavanaugh in 2018. And as voting in the 2020 election was already underway. Amy Coney Barrett So as of October 27th, 2020, when Justice Barrett donned her robes, Trump had transformed a balanced court to a lopsided 623 conservative majority court.

Rosie Blau [00:12:04] And of course, that’s had a huge impact on policy, hasn’t it? Most obviously, with the overturning Roe versus Wade.

Rosie Blau [00:12:04] And of course, that’s had a huge impact on policy, hasn’t it? Most obviously, with the overturning Roe versus Wade.

Stephen Mazie [00:12:11] Yes. In 2022, Trump’s three justices joined in the Dobbs opinion, which overturned Roe versus Wade, which had protected a right to abortion for five decades. But the court has done a lot of other things since 2020. The court has greatly expanded gun rights. It has gutted the power of administrative agencies and has brought church and state closer together constitutionally than they have ever been. And this past July, the court surprised a lot of people in the bracingly titled case of Trump versus the US to give presidents immunity from criminal prosecution for nearly everything they do. And that decision pulled the plug on a quite tenable lawsuit against Donald Trump for his role trying to overthrow the last election.

Stephen Mazie [00:12:11] Yes. In 2022, Trump’s three justices joined in the Dobbs opinion, which overturned Roe versus Wade, which had protected a right to abortion for five decades. But the court has done a lot of other things since 2020. The court has greatly expanded gun rights. It has gutted the power of administrative agencies and has brought church and state closer together constitutionally than they have ever been. And this past July, the court surprised a lot of people in the bracingly titled case of Trump versus the US to give presidents immunity from criminal prosecution for nearly everything they do. And that decision pulled the plug on a quite tenable lawsuit against Donald Trump for his role trying to overthrow the last election.

Rosie Blau [00:13:04] You’ve mentioned that we might get some new justices who would lead to leave.

Rosie Blau [00:13:04] You’ve mentioned that we might get some new justices who would lead to leave.

Stephen Mazie [00:13:09] The two justices who are furthest to the right on the court or also the justices who are the two oldest. They are Clarence Thomas at 76 and Samuel Alito in 74. And there is some expectation that one or both of these men will step down in the next year or two to let Donald Trump name their successors. While Trump has a fairly comfortable majority in the Senate. And it’s also worth noting that John Roberts, the chief justice, turns 70 years old one week after Trump enters the White House. And Justice Sonia Sotomayor, one of the three remaining liberal justices, is already 70. So it’s not unthinkable that Trump could have 3 or 4 appointments in his second term. But if he gets two, although the 6 to 3 balance would not change, that balance would be extended potentially for decades, and it would very much be Donald Trump’s court.

Stephen Mazie [00:13:09] The two justices who are furthest to the right on the court or also the justices who are the two oldest. They are Clarence Thomas at 76 and Samuel Alito in 74. And there is some expectation that one or both of these men will step down in the next year or two to let Donald Trump name their successors. While Trump has a fairly comfortable majority in the Senate. And it’s also worth noting that John Roberts, the chief justice, turns 70 years old one week after Trump enters the White House. And Justice Sonia Sotomayor, one of the three remaining liberal justices, is already 70. So it’s not unthinkable that Trump could have 3 or 4 appointments in his second term. But if he gets two, although the 6 to 3 balance would not change, that balance would be extended potentially for decades, and it would very much be Donald Trump’s court.

Rosie Blau [00:14:10] And do you have any sense of who Trump might pick for the court and what they stand for?

Rosie Blau [00:14:10] And do you have any sense of who Trump might pick for the court and what they stand for?

Stephen Mazie [00:14:15] There are two relatively young judges, both on the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which is America’s most conservative court, who a lot of people are mentioning as possible replacements for Thomas and Alito. One of them is James Ho. He’s 51. He has described gun rights as the ultimate guarantor of all other liberties enjoyed by Americans. He regularly injects himself into culture war battles, for example, boycotting students from certain law schools when he’s hiring clerks. In a recent interview, he announced his position that birthright citizenship, which is a foundational right and the 14th Amendment that says if you are born in the United States, you are a citizen thereof. Does not apply to children of migrants who cross the border illegally. He called them in this interview invaders and some of his outrageous rulings like purporting to take abortion pills off the shelf or saying that violent domestic abusers have a right to own guns, have been roundly rejected by the justices when they’ve reached the Supreme Court. There are other contenders. Another one is also at the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. His name is Andrew Oldham. He’s younger than Ho at age 46, and he clerked for Justice Alito in 2008. Likewise, Judge Ho had clerked for Justice Thomas. So there might be some sort of poetic transfer of judicial power between Thomas and Alito and those two Fifth Circuit judges.

Stephen Mazie [00:14:15] There are two relatively young judges, both on the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which is America’s most conservative court, who a lot of people are mentioning as possible replacements for Thomas and Alito. One of them is James Ho. He’s 51. He has described gun rights as the ultimate guarantor of all other liberties enjoyed by Americans. He regularly injects himself into culture war battles, for example, boycotting students from certain law schools when he’s hiring clerks. In a recent interview, he announced his position that birthright citizenship, which is a foundational right and the 14th Amendment that says if you are born in the United States, you are a citizen thereof. Does not apply to children of migrants who cross the border illegally. He called them in this interview invaders and some of his outrageous rulings like purporting to take abortion pills off the shelf or saying that violent domestic abusers have a right to own guns, have been roundly rejected by the justices when they’ve reached the Supreme Court. There are other contenders. Another one is also at the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. His name is Andrew Oldham. He’s younger than Ho at age 46, and he clerked for Justice Alito in 2008. Likewise, Judge Ho had clerked for Justice Thomas. So there might be some sort of poetic transfer of judicial power between Thomas and Alito and those two Fifth Circuit judges.

Rosie Blau [00:15:58] Do you have any sense. Given all of this, what we can expect from the court under Trump? What kind of issues might be in their in-tray?

Rosie Blau [00:15:58] Do you have any sense. Given all of this, what we can expect from the court under Trump? What kind of issues might be in their in-tray?

Stephen Mazie [00:16:06] There’s the very important question of whether and to what extent the court will provide guardrails against likely excesses of a second Trump term. It’s important to recall that the court did check Trump’s power in some ways during his first term, when he wanted to add a citizenship question to the census. They blocked that when Trump wanted to protect his financial records and taxes from prying eyes. They didn’t let him do that. They cut back on the first two iterations of his travel ban against people coming from Muslim countries. And also there was a decision involving DOCA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which was the 2012 liberalization under Obama. The court blocked Trump’s attempt to rescind that. I still expect the court, despite everything I’ve said, to be a bulwark against truly outrageous moves such as if Trump does try to rescind the citizenship of people born on American soil and Justice Barrett in particular, seems less likely to enable Trump in a second term than her brethren. But because the court is now 6 to 3, she’ll need to be joined by at least one more conservative to form a majority with the three liberal justices and the most likely person to join her in those cases would be the Chief Justice, John Roberts or Brett Kavanaugh. And those justices, I think, cannot be counted on.

Stephen Mazie [00:16:06] There’s the very important question of whether and to what extent the court will provide guardrails against likely excesses of a second Trump term. It’s important to recall that the court did check Trump’s power in some ways during his first term, when he wanted to add a citizenship question to the census. They blocked that when Trump wanted to protect his financial records and taxes from prying eyes. They didn’t let him do that. They cut back on the first two iterations of his travel ban against people coming from Muslim countries. And also there was a decision involving DOCA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which was the 2012 liberalization under Obama. The court blocked Trump’s attempt to rescind that. I still expect the court, despite everything I’ve said, to be a bulwark against truly outrageous moves such as if Trump does try to rescind the citizenship of people born on American soil and Justice Barrett in particular, seems less likely to enable Trump in a second term than her brethren. But because the court is now 6 to 3, she’ll need to be joined by at least one more conservative to form a majority with the three liberal justices and the most likely person to join her in those cases would be the Chief Justice, John Roberts or Brett Kavanaugh. And those justices, I think, cannot be counted on.

Rosie Blau [00:17:44] Stephen, thank you so much for talking to me.

Rosie Blau [00:17:44] Stephen, thank you so much for talking to me.

Stephen Mazie [00:17:47] Rosy, thank you.

Stephen Mazie [00:17:47] Rosy, thank you.

Rosie Blau [00:17:50] As Donald Trump thinks about his future plans, Democrats are considering how to respond to them. Today’s episode of Checks and Balance, a weekly US podcast, will be looking at how the Democrats are regrouping after losing the election. You’ll need to be a subscriber to listen.

Rosie Blau [00:17:50] As Donald Trump thinks about his future plans, Democrats are considering how to respond to them. Today’s episode of Checks and Balance, a weekly US podcast, will be looking at how the Democrats are regrouping after losing the election. You’ll need to be a subscriber to listen.

Ann Wroe [00:18:16] Almost every day of the week. For more than six decades, Frank Auerbach would stroll along Mornington Crescent, a very typical North London street.

Ann Wroe [00:18:16] Almost every day of the week. For more than six decades, Frank Auerbach would stroll along Mornington Crescent, a very typical North London street.

Rosie Blau [00:18:27] Andrew is the Economist’s obituaries editor.

Rosie Blau [00:18:27] Andrew is the Economist’s obituaries editor.

Ann Wroe [00:18:31] Tall terraced houses of sooty red brick and stucco with a small park or garden, railed off to one side. He would often go there at dawn with a sketchpad and do drawings of it because he loved to just watch the deserted streets before anyone had stared. And this was his whole world. This class gritty Camden Town on the edge of it, and Primrose Hill with its green slopes and lovely views of London. That was about as far as he got out of this radius. And he painted this world again and again and again. If you went through the wicket gate and down to his studio, the door opened on a complete explosion of paint. He worked really in a storm. Almost throwing his paint around, squeezing the tubes directly onto the canvas and layering up his paint so thickly that it sometimes looked as if it wasn’t bent at all but sand or mud or something like that. He loved layering and layering his paint. And when he went round the bomb sites of London, which were another cause of great fascination to him, very dramatic, he found them. He would produce these pictures that looked as if they were great turmoils of mud, general darkness and gloom after the war. But he did in the end, begin to become a little bit lighter in his approach. There was, however, an itch always in the back of his mind that he had to create one memorable image he didn’t feel yet that he had. He’d got to make a painting that would stick in the public mind that would seem to stand by itself even without having anything to do with him. And so his technique after he’d led and led and led the paint up on the paper was often just to scrape it all off again because he was still dissatisfied with it. His sitters would hear him muttering, Rubbish, complete rubbish. So this meant that his bill for payment was absolutely extraordinary because at first he had rather dull blacks and browns and greens, and then he moved into much brighter colors. But he used tremendous amounts of it and he reckoned that 95% of it would just end up in the bin because he would paint and paint again and layer on the paint and scrape it all off. And that was his technique. He did the same with his sketches and drawings in charcoal graphite. He would rub them out with a rubber and then try and draw over them, rub them out again. And he was rather pleased with the effect of Gaston as that appeared on the paper. His only memory from his early years was putting a brush in the paint box and feeling how the brush went in and then seeing the colors soak into the paper. This was extraordinarily exciting and it was poignant that it was his only childhood memory because his childhood was interrupted abruptly when he was eight, when his parents sent him to England by the Kindertransport. They themselves were so anxious about what was happening with the Nazis that they decided they couldn’t risk bringing him up in Germany any more. But they did not escape and they were murdered in Auschwitz in 1942. Oddly, by then, Frank Auerbach had become so acclimatized to England that he hardly remembered his parents. And he was becoming more and more obsessed with being an artist. At school, he focused on art all the time. When he was 16, he decided not to do what he was going to be. And when he had finished at art school, he tried to sell his paintings from the pavement. And he could never really do anything new. He felt that had not been tried before, but what he could produce was what his mind saw because his mind was unique and it was new and nobody else was going to grasp an object quite in the same way. So his style of painting was really coming from deep inside himself. He didn’t think it was expressionist. He just thought it was a portrayal of his mind at that moment. And that meant he could keep on and on painting. There would be no end to it because his objects and faces were different. Every time of day he looked at them, every time his mood changed. It was always something that was making the subject of his painting different. And that was why he kept on until he was 93 and would have kept on further if he could possibly have managed it. He was still enchanted. By the way, the light of the dawn on Mornington Crescent changed every single time he passed.

Ann Wroe [00:18:31] Tall terraced houses of sooty red brick and stucco with a small park or garden, railed off to one side. He would often go there at dawn with a sketchpad and do drawings of it because he loved to just watch the deserted streets before anyone had stared. And this was his whole world. This class gritty Camden Town on the edge of it, and Primrose Hill with its green slopes and lovely views of London. That was about as far as he got out of this radius. And he painted this world again and again and again. If you went through the wicket gate and down to his studio, the door opened on a complete explosion of paint. He worked really in a storm. Almost throwing his paint around, squeezing the tubes directly onto the canvas and layering up his paint so thickly that it sometimes looked as if it wasn’t bent at all but sand or mud or something like that. He loved layering and layering his paint. And when he went round the bomb sites of London, which were another cause of great fascination to him, very dramatic, he found them. He would produce these pictures that looked as if they were great turmoils of mud, general darkness and gloom after the war. But he did in the end, begin to become a little bit lighter in his approach. There was, however, an itch always in the back of his mind that he had to create one memorable image he didn’t feel yet that he had. He’d got to make a painting that would stick in the public mind that would seem to stand by itself even without having anything to do with him. And so his technique after he’d led and led and led the paint up on the paper was often just to scrape it all off again because he was still dissatisfied with it. His sitters would hear him muttering, Rubbish, complete rubbish. So this meant that his bill for payment was absolutely extraordinary because at first he had rather dull blacks and browns and greens, and then he moved into much brighter colors. But he used tremendous amounts of it and he reckoned that 95% of it would just end up in the bin because he would paint and paint again and layer on the paint and scrape it all off. And that was his technique. He did the same with his sketches and drawings in charcoal graphite. He would rub them out with a rubber and then try and draw over them, rub them out again. And he was rather pleased with the effect of Gaston as that appeared on the paper. His only memory from his early years was putting a brush in the paint box and feeling how the brush went in and then seeing the colors soak into the paper. This was extraordinarily exciting and it was poignant that it was his only childhood memory because his childhood was interrupted abruptly when he was eight, when his parents sent him to England by the Kindertransport. They themselves were so anxious about what was happening with the Nazis that they decided they couldn’t risk bringing him up in Germany any more. But they did not escape and they were murdered in Auschwitz in 1942. Oddly, by then, Frank Auerbach had become so acclimatized to England that he hardly remembered his parents. And he was becoming more and more obsessed with being an artist. At school, he focused on art all the time. When he was 16, he decided not to do what he was going to be. And when he had finished at art school, he tried to sell his paintings from the pavement. And he could never really do anything new. He felt that had not been tried before, but what he could produce was what his mind saw because his mind was unique and it was new and nobody else was going to grasp an object quite in the same way. So his style of painting was really coming from deep inside himself. He didn’t think it was expressionist. He just thought it was a portrayal of his mind at that moment. And that meant he could keep on and on painting. There would be no end to it because his objects and faces were different. Every time of day he looked at them, every time his mood changed. It was always something that was making the subject of his painting different. And that was why he kept on until he was 93 and would have kept on further if he could possibly have managed it. He was still enchanted. By the way, the light of the dawn on Mornington Crescent changed every single time he passed.

Rosie Blau [00:24:39] Ann Wroe on frank Auerbach, who has died aged 93. That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence. The show’s editors are Chris Impey and Jat Gill. Our deputy editor is JohnJo Devlin, and our sound designer is Will Rowe with help this week from Timo Saila, a senior producers are Rory Galloway and Sarah Lawrynuik. Our senior creative producer is William Warren. Our producers are Maggie Kadifa and Benji Guy, and our assistant producers are Henrietta McFarlane and Kunal Patel. With extra production help this week from Jonathan Day. We’ll all see you back here for the weekend intelligence tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:24:39] Ann Wroe on frank Auerbach, who has died aged 93. That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence. The show’s editors are Chris Impey and Jat Gill. Our deputy editor is JohnJo Devlin, and our sound designer is Will Rowe with help this week from Timo Saila, a senior producers are Rory Galloway and Sarah Lawrynuik. Our senior creative producer is William Warren. Our producers are Maggie Kadifa and Benji Guy, and our assistant producers are Henrietta McFarlane and Kunal Patel. With extra production help this week from Jonathan Day. We’ll all see you back here for the weekend intelligence tomorrow.

Podcasts

Babbage

The surprising ways in which games have changed the world—an interview with Kelly Clancy

Drum Tower

Inside China’s disciplinary centres for “deviant” youth

The Intelligence 

Trump ducks a legal storm as federal cases dropped

The Adani scandal is another setback for Narendra Modi

The Weekend Intelligence

Ibiza: When the party’s over

People walk along Platja d'en Bossa with boards advertising for a night at Pacha nightclub, Ibiza.

Money Talks

Why are Asia’s middle classes stagnating?

Aerial view of Residence Bel-Air, Cyberport, Hong Kong at dusk with car lights and residential lights glowing.

Editorials, columns, guest opinions and your letters, all in one place

Sign up to our Opinion newsletter

Opinion

A behind-the-scenes look at how we chose and designed this week’s cover

How we chose this week’s cover image

Cover Story

Catch up quickly on the global stories that matter

Sign up to enjoy a mind-expanding mix of stories, delivered six days a week

Catch up quickly on the stories that matter

The World in Brief

A sharp round-up of the most important US political news

Sign up for updates from our correspondents and data journalists, poll tracker and election-forecast model as the 2024 race unfolds

The US in brief

Highlights from the latest weekly issue, introduced by our editor

The Economist this week

The very best of our journalism, handpicked for you each weekday

A daily newsletter with the best of our journalism

Handpicked stories, in your inbox

The Economist today

Your essential guide to global business and technology

From supply chains to semiconductors, The Bottom Line newsletter has you covered

Need to track the megatrends shaping business and technology?

The Bottom Line

Expert analysis of the biggest stories in economics and markets

Exclusive insight from our correspondents in America

Exclusive insight and reading recommendations from our correspondents in America

Checks and Balance

Analysing the challenges facing Britain and what needs to be done to overcome them

Stay informed with our weekly Britain newsletter

Blighty

The best of The Economist’s defence coverage, in one place

The War Room

Understand a vast and complicated country that will increasingly shape the future

Stay informed with our weekly India newsletter

Essential India

Understand what the world makes of China—and what China makes of the world

Stay informed with our weekly China newsletter

Inside Europe, from the front lines in Ukraine to the corridors of power in Brussels

Stay informed with our weekly Europe newsletter

Café Europa

A weekly fix of our mind-expanding science coverage

Curious about the world? Enjoy a weekly fix of our mind-expanding science coverage

Simply Science

A weekly conversation about culture. Because culture is a serious business

Exploring trends and connections across entertainment, the arts and politics

Broaden your perspective with our weekly culture newsletter

Plot Twist

Weekly insights into a continent that is reshaping our world

Our weekly newsletter will help you make sense of the sweeping changes taking place across Africa

Exclusive insights into a continent that is reshaping our world

Analysing Africa

Get to grips with a region where capital, climate and geopolitics collide

Go deeper with our Middle East newsletter. Every week our correspondents delve into the political, social and economic stories of a region that is rarely out of the news.

Sign up to our Middle East newsletter

Middle East Dispatch

Taking you behind the scenes of our data journalism

Off the Charts

Follow the action in Latin America, from the depths of the Brazilian Amazon to the Mexican-American border

Every week our correspondents share insights on politics, economics and business from an increasingly complex region

Stay informed with our weekly Latin America newsletter

El Boletín

Climate-change analysis that you won’t read elsewhere in The Economist

The Climate Issue

Long reads and life from 1843 magazine

Why British MPs should back assisted dying

Also on the daily podcast: Trump’s Supreme Court and remembering painter Frank Auerbach

Transcript

Discover more