This weekend, the ruling Georgian Dream party elected a new president – but only one name was on the ballot. That sparked further street protests, as our correspondent reports. Why a new US administration will find it hard to cut costs at NASA (12:19). And the enduring appeal of the martini (19:42). Runtime: 26 min

This weekend, the ruling Georgian Dream party elected a new president – but only one name was on the ballot. That sparked further street protests, as our correspondent reports. Why a new US administration will find it hard to <a href="https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/12/05/nasa-is-an-obvious-target-for-elon-musks-axe?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">cut costs at NASA</a> (12:19). And the enduring appeal of <a href="https://www.economist.com/culture/2024/09/19/how-the-martini-became-the-worlds-most-iconic-cocktail?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">the martini</a> (19:42). Runtime: 26 min

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The Intelligence 

The election of Georgia’s new footballer president has incited anger, not calm

Supporters of the Georgian opposition hold portraits of people injured at rallies during a protest after Mikheil Kavelashvili is elected as new Georgia's President 

The Intelligence

Off-side: Georgians reject new president

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Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Rosie Blau.

Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Rosie Blau.

Jason Palmer [00:00:15] And I’m Jason Palmer. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Jason Palmer [00:00:15] And I’m Jason Palmer. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Rosie Blau [00:00:25] There’s no denying America’s space agency, Nasser, doesn’t seem to get good value out of taxpayers money. It’s an obvious target for an incoming administration that wants to cut waste. Yet budget slashes such as Elon Musk may struggle.

Rosie Blau [00:00:25] There’s no denying America’s space agency, Nasser, doesn’t seem to get good value out of taxpayers money. It’s an obvious target for an incoming administration that wants to cut waste. Yet budget slashes such as Elon Musk may struggle.

Jason Palmer [00:00:40] And the martini is at once a simple drink and an endlessly variable one. We head to an infamous London Martini emporium to discuss a new book that asks how it got and stayed so popular.

Jason Palmer [00:00:40] And the martini is at once a simple drink and an endlessly variable one. We head to an infamous London Martini emporium to discuss a new book that asks how it got and stayed so popular.

Rosie Blau [00:01:01] But first. This weekend. Georgia’s capital, Tbilisi, was a scene of contrast. Inside the parliament, the ruling Georgian Dream Party elected a new president.

Rosie Blau [00:01:01] But first. This weekend. Georgia’s capital, Tbilisi, was a scene of contrast. Inside the parliament, the ruling Georgian Dream Party elected a new president.

Rosie Blau [00:01:22] It was a procedural show that harked back to the country’s Soviet past. There was only one name on the ballot, Mikhail Vitti, a former footballer for Manchester City.

Rosie Blau [00:01:22] It was a procedural show that harked back to the country’s Soviet past. There was only one name on the ballot, Mikhail Vitti, a former footballer for Manchester City.

Clip [00:01:33] Only when he came out, less freedom.

Clip [00:01:33] Only when he came out, less freedom.

Rosie Blau [00:01:35] But the people of Georgia aren’t happy that Moscow is once again pulling the strings. During the vote, thousands took to the streets outside Parliament. It’s the third week of protests against the Georgian Dream government after a disputed election this autumn. Demonstrations erupted in late November when the government voted to delay the country’s accession to the EU. But as this weekend’s events showed, dissent is now about something far larger.

Rosie Blau [00:01:35] But the people of Georgia aren’t happy that Moscow is once again pulling the strings. During the vote, thousands took to the streets outside Parliament. It’s the third week of protests against the Georgian Dream government after a disputed election this autumn. Demonstrations erupted in late November when the government voted to delay the country’s accession to the EU. But as this weekend’s events showed, dissent is now about something far larger.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:04] These protests have long past the point of them being simply about that EU promise. They are now more about creating a country that Georgians actually want to live in.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:04] These protests have long past the point of them being simply about that EU promise. They are now more about creating a country that Georgians actually want to live in.

Rosie Blau [00:02:17] Sarah Lawrynuik , our senior producer, has been reporting from Tbilisi this weekend.

Rosie Blau [00:02:17] Sarah Lawrynuik , our senior producer, has been reporting from Tbilisi this weekend.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:21] On the streets, it really looked like there was a potential boiling point in this conflict between the people and their government and it was somehow diffused. But it really highlighted just how delicate that line is that the Georgian dream government is walking right now between trying to suppress dissent and being so heavy handed that they, in fact, incite a revolution. So he spoke on the show a few weeks ago when demonstrations were starting to boil up.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:21] On the streets, it really looked like there was a potential boiling point in this conflict between the people and their government and it was somehow diffused. But it really highlighted just how delicate that line is that the Georgian dream government is walking right now between trying to suppress dissent and being so heavy handed that they, in fact, incite a revolution. So he spoke on the show a few weeks ago when demonstrations were starting to boil up.

Rosie Blau [00:02:49] But why would this weekend have been such a tense moment?

Rosie Blau [00:02:49] But why would this weekend have been such a tense moment?

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:53] So for the last 19 days, these protests have been incredibly dynamic and it’s become a bit of a chess match. In that first week when we first visited the story, it seemed like it would be a violent revolt. The riot police were deployed right away and they brought out the tear gas, the water cannon breaking. And protesters retaliated with fireworks being launched not only at police but at parliament. And then things actually managed to escalate further beyond that point after we talked about this story. Police started peeling off protesters from the crowd at random and beating them in the streets. Many of these people ended up in hospital with pretty severe injuries. And last weekend, as I attended the rallies, you actually saw it escalate even further still because you saw these unmarked, masked thugs just prowling through backstreets and alleys and they were randomly attacking people on their way to or from the protests. And one of those attacks was actually of a local journalist and it was caught live on TV. Opposition members have also been pulled out of their offices and left bloodied and bruised. The Georgian Dream Party that is in power now, they have denied involvement with those unmarked thugs. But it’s a tactic that has been used by this regime before and was, in fact used in Ukraine during the Euromaidan protests by the Russian backed government there in 2014. It is something straight from the Kremlin playbook, but that, in fact, just spurred more people to come out. And that’s what really scared the Georgian Dream Party. We spoke on the show a few weeks ago when demonstrations were starting to boil up.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:02:53] So for the last 19 days, these protests have been incredibly dynamic and it’s become a bit of a chess match. In that first week when we first visited the story, it seemed like it would be a violent revolt. The riot police were deployed right away and they brought out the tear gas, the water cannon breaking. And protesters retaliated with fireworks being launched not only at police but at parliament. And then things actually managed to escalate further beyond that point after we talked about this story. Police started peeling off protesters from the crowd at random and beating them in the streets. Many of these people ended up in hospital with pretty severe injuries. And last weekend, as I attended the rallies, you actually saw it escalate even further still because you saw these unmarked, masked thugs just prowling through backstreets and alleys and they were randomly attacking people on their way to or from the protests. And one of those attacks was actually of a local journalist and it was caught live on TV. Opposition members have also been pulled out of their offices and left bloodied and bruised. The Georgian Dream Party that is in power now, they have denied involvement with those unmarked thugs. But it’s a tactic that has been used by this regime before and was, in fact used in Ukraine during the Euromaidan protests by the Russian backed government there in 2014. It is something straight from the Kremlin playbook, but that, in fact, just spurred more people to come out. And that’s what really scared the Georgian Dream Party. We spoke on the show a few weeks ago when demonstrations were starting to boil up.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:04:41] It was a really impressive show of defiance from the Georgian people, I’ll be honest. The night after the most violent protests, I saw a 13 year old girl in the street and she was holding this big sign above her head that said EU. When was the last time someone fought like this for you? And I asked her, Have you seen the violence? Are you afraid? Only stupid people are frightened by this and ones who care for our country. I’m encouraged. So, yeah. And so the government saw this scene of more and more people pouring into the streets, and they actually changed their tactic entirely this last week on the streets at these protests, it’s been eerily calm. Actually, law enforcement has completely stepped back. They are still there, but they are in their vans and buses idling blocks away. And they let people just kind of disperse on their own in the early morning hours. And now they’ve turned to a completely different kind of intimidation where they’re issuing summons to high profile community members, arresting some of them, charging them with civil infractions. One man this week was actually he’s a researcher at a pro-democracy NGO, and he was taken off the street while walking his dog. And when his friends went to go and try and figure out where he was, they just found his dog tied to a tree. And so by Saturday, when the presidential election was taking place, there was also meant to be this ceremonial tree lighting hosted by the Tbilisi mayor. And he is in alignment with the Georgian Dream Party. And so it was expected to be this showdown. It really all built to this weekend.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:04:41] It was a really impressive show of defiance from the Georgian people, I’ll be honest. The night after the most violent protests, I saw a 13 year old girl in the street and she was holding this big sign above her head that said EU. When was the last time someone fought like this for you? And I asked her, Have you seen the violence? Are you afraid? Only stupid people are frightened by this and ones who care for our country. I’m encouraged. So, yeah. And so the government saw this scene of more and more people pouring into the streets, and they actually changed their tactic entirely this last week on the streets at these protests, it’s been eerily calm. Actually, law enforcement has completely stepped back. They are still there, but they are in their vans and buses idling blocks away. And they let people just kind of disperse on their own in the early morning hours. And now they’ve turned to a completely different kind of intimidation where they’re issuing summons to high profile community members, arresting some of them, charging them with civil infractions. One man this week was actually he’s a researcher at a pro-democracy NGO, and he was taken off the street while walking his dog. And when his friends went to go and try and figure out where he was, they just found his dog tied to a tree. And so by Saturday, when the presidential election was taking place, there was also meant to be this ceremonial tree lighting hosted by the Tbilisi mayor. And he is in alignment with the Georgian Dream Party. And so it was expected to be this showdown. It really all built to this weekend.

Rosie Blau [00:06:15] So what actually happened this weekend?

Rosie Blau [00:06:15] So what actually happened this weekend?

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:06:18] People were out all day on Saturday, and it actually had become rather hazardous because so many of the protesters, in order to mark the election of this new president, who is a former footballer himself, they all brought footballs and they were playing in the streets and you had to dodge footballs left, right and centre. But it was around 630 that the enormous police presence descended on Savelli Avenue, hundreds of regularly dressed police officers. These weren’t riot cops, but hundreds of them streamed into the street right before that ceremonial tree lighting was supposed to take place at seven. And they just stood there. And at one point, in a really poor strategic move, they ended up sandwiched between two crowds of protesters. And that really scared me because the most dangerous thing in these situations is, in fact, scared police officers because you don’t know what will happen next. And then around 7:00, they just left. The government had decided that this wasn’t going to be their moment. They weren’t going to pursue this tree lighting. They delayed it. And they are, in fact, walking that line of when do we pick our battles?

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:06:18] People were out all day on Saturday, and it actually had become rather hazardous because so many of the protesters, in order to mark the election of this new president, who is a former footballer himself, they all brought footballs and they were playing in the streets and you had to dodge footballs left, right and centre. But it was around 630 that the enormous police presence descended on Savelli Avenue, hundreds of regularly dressed police officers. These weren’t riot cops, but hundreds of them streamed into the street right before that ceremonial tree lighting was supposed to take place at seven. And they just stood there. And at one point, in a really poor strategic move, they ended up sandwiched between two crowds of protesters. And that really scared me because the most dangerous thing in these situations is, in fact, scared police officers because you don’t know what will happen next. And then around 7:00, they just left. The government had decided that this wasn’t going to be their moment. They weren’t going to pursue this tree lighting. They delayed it. And they are, in fact, walking that line of when do we pick our battles?

Rosie Blau [00:07:27] Sara, as you say, protest originally erupted because the Georgia Dream Party pulled out of EU accession plans. But now, of course, it seems to be about far more than that. What are people really demonstrating about?

Rosie Blau [00:07:27] Sara, as you say, protest originally erupted because the Georgia Dream Party pulled out of EU accession plans. But now, of course, it seems to be about far more than that. What are people really demonstrating about?

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:07:40] So, yeah, it’s about the European Union. But everyone I’ve spoken to has said it’s really not about the European Union at all. They know it would be a long process to join the EU. It’s more about the fact that the Georgian people have been put between Russia and the West, and it comes down to a matter of values. Since independence here in Georgia, civil society has really developed and they’re not willing to give up on democracy and they’re not willing to give up on the economic opportunities of being aligned with the West. The issue really comes down to the fact that the real powerbroker in Georgia is a man named Bidzina Ivanishvili, who was the founder of the Georgian Dream Party in 2012. And he made his money in Russia in the 1990s. And while he might have always been aligned with Russia, it’s increasingly obvious that the government he controls is moving more and more towards Russia. And the people are saying no. This era of backsliding, it ends now and they’re angry.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:07:40] So, yeah, it’s about the European Union. But everyone I’ve spoken to has said it’s really not about the European Union at all. They know it would be a long process to join the EU. It’s more about the fact that the Georgian people have been put between Russia and the West, and it comes down to a matter of values. Since independence here in Georgia, civil society has really developed and they’re not willing to give up on democracy and they’re not willing to give up on the economic opportunities of being aligned with the West. The issue really comes down to the fact that the real powerbroker in Georgia is a man named Bidzina Ivanishvili, who was the founder of the Georgian Dream Party in 2012. And he made his money in Russia in the 1990s. And while he might have always been aligned with Russia, it’s increasingly obvious that the government he controls is moving more and more towards Russia. And the people are saying no. This era of backsliding, it ends now and they’re angry.

Rosie Blau [00:08:38] Sarah, you mentioned the word revolution earlier. Obviously, the government is trying to do everything it can to get this under control. Will it succeed?

Rosie Blau [00:08:38] Sarah, you mentioned the word revolution earlier. Obviously, the government is trying to do everything it can to get this under control. Will it succeed?

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:08:47] The task now is definitely harder than it’s been at any other point. There have been three rounds of mass protests in the country this year alone, and they’ve all fizzled out. This round could be different, and there’s two reasons why they are likely to be different. One is that the dissent has completely spread to the regions. Any city, any town is having regular protests now. And I went to a small town called Kasuri in central Georgia, and I met the people there. It was a very modest gathering in the city centre. It was about two dozen people, very wholesome. They were brought tea by a nearby coffee shop. And people there said it doesn’t matter how many people are here, it’s that we’ve never protested here before. And one woman, an English teacher named Lorna, actually heavily told me that because so many people rely on public service jobs in that town, they couldn’t afford to stay, but that there was anyone in the street was still consequential.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:08:47] The task now is definitely harder than it’s been at any other point. There have been three rounds of mass protests in the country this year alone, and they’ve all fizzled out. This round could be different, and there’s two reasons why they are likely to be different. One is that the dissent has completely spread to the regions. Any city, any town is having regular protests now. And I went to a small town called Kasuri in central Georgia, and I met the people there. It was a very modest gathering in the city centre. It was about two dozen people, very wholesome. They were brought tea by a nearby coffee shop. And people there said it doesn’t matter how many people are here, it’s that we’ve never protested here before. And one woman, an English teacher named Lorna, actually heavily told me that because so many people rely on public service jobs in that town, they couldn’t afford to stay, but that there was anyone in the street was still consequential.

Clip [00:09:44] When we started protesting, we were more than 2000. But in two days the number decreased. I don’t know why, but there are rumours that people have been threatened and because of that they fear to stand here with us because they are afraid that they will, that they may lose jobs.

Clip [00:09:44] When we started protesting, we were more than 2000. But in two days the number decreased. I don’t know why, but there are rumours that people have been threatened and because of that they fear to stand here with us because they are afraid that they will, that they may lose jobs.

Clip [00:10:07] Are you not afraid?

Clip [00:10:08] I’m not afraid. No.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:10:11] The second reason these protests are different is that even back in the capital, the protests are dynamic and evolving. Where it started as evening protests every night. Now it’s splintered. And Thursday it sector workers shut down the city in its entirety, blocking traffic everywhere. And they’ve been met by any number of other professions doctors, teachers. And then not to be outdone by the vocations hobbyists have taken to the street, too. And so on Friday, we saw nightclub enthusiasts take to the streets. And on Saturday, I walked through the streets with the mountaineers and hikers. So someone described to me as a many headed monster. And the powers that be don’t know which head to chase anymore. So what happens next? That’s a really good question. And I think there’s a couple of problems here. The demonstrations so far have lacked a charismatic leader or a clear moment of focus, and the government is going to hope to play on that, especially coming into the holidays. They hope that these protests die out the way the past ones have. But there could be another flash point coming here on December 29th. The outgoing president solemnly swear or bitch? Vaguely. She is firmly pro-European Union and she has chosen to stand with the people. She said she refuses to step down. She is the last institution that isn’t corrupt in this country. And so we don’t know what that will look like come December 29th. But really, this puts that oligarch Ivanishvili between a rock and a hard place here, because as one local reporter here put it to me, Ivanishvili knows what happens to the people who betray the Kremlin. And that’s what the Georgian people are really up against here. It’s not just them against the government. It’s them against Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is not inclined to let Georgia go quietly.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:10:11] The second reason these protests are different is that even back in the capital, the protests are dynamic and evolving. Where it started as evening protests every night. Now it’s splintered. And Thursday it sector workers shut down the city in its entirety, blocking traffic everywhere. And they’ve been met by any number of other professions doctors, teachers. And then not to be outdone by the vocations hobbyists have taken to the street, too. And so on Friday, we saw nightclub enthusiasts take to the streets. And on Saturday, I walked through the streets with the mountaineers and hikers. So someone described to me as a many headed monster. And the powers that be don’t know which head to chase anymore. So what happens next? That’s a really good question. And I think there’s a couple of problems here. The demonstrations so far have lacked a charismatic leader or a clear moment of focus, and the government is going to hope to play on that, especially coming into the holidays. They hope that these protests die out the way the past ones have. But there could be another flash point coming here on December 29th. The outgoing president solemnly swear or bitch? Vaguely. She is firmly pro-European Union and she has chosen to stand with the people. She said she refuses to step down. She is the last institution that isn’t corrupt in this country. And so we don’t know what that will look like come December 29th. But really, this puts that oligarch Ivanishvili between a rock and a hard place here, because as one local reporter here put it to me, Ivanishvili knows what happens to the people who betray the Kremlin. And that’s what the Georgian people are really up against here. It’s not just them against the government. It’s them against Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is not inclined to let Georgia go quietly.

Rosie Blau [00:12:01] Sara, great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Rosie Blau [00:12:01] Sara, great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:12:04] Thanks, Rosy.

Jason Palmer [00:12:26] There was a time that America’s space agency, NASA, was really more an aspect of Cold War great power competition than about exploration for its own sake. Another spectacular year in the space race. The Soviets. On October 12th, Columbus Day launched an innovation in space travel. The three manned space buffs that cannot lose mission led, of course, to the most watched flag planting the world has ever known. Man on the moon. Wake up to get down and go back. Then these were government projects and no price was too high for national pride. These days, private companies are doing more and more of the grunt work, and they’re doing it, in many cases, far, far more cheaply. Something the incoming Trump administration knows all too well.

Jason Palmer [00:12:26] There was a time that America’s space agency, NASA, was really more an aspect of Cold War great power competition than about exploration for its own sake. Another spectacular year in the space race. The Soviets. On October 12th, Columbus Day launched an innovation in space travel. The three manned space buffs that cannot lose mission led, of course, to the most watched flag planting the world has ever known. Man on the moon. Wake up to get down and go back. Then these were government projects and no price was too high for national pride. These days, private companies are doing more and more of the grunt work, and they’re doing it, in many cases, far, far more cheaply. Something the incoming Trump administration knows all too well.

Tim Cross [00:13:12] With all the excitement around the new Department of Government Efficiency or Doge headed by Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. People have been trying to work out what its cost cutting targets might be.

Tim Cross [00:13:12] With all the excitement around the new Department of Government Efficiency or Doge headed by Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. People have been trying to work out what its cost cutting targets might be.

Jason Palmer [00:13:25] Tim Cross is our senior science writer.

Jason Palmer [00:13:25] Tim Cross is our senior science writer.

Tim Cross [00:13:28] I think one that is almost certainly in the crosshairs is Nasser.

Tim Cross [00:13:28] I think one that is almost certainly in the crosshairs is Nasser.

Jason Palmer [00:13:35] So why do you think Nasser would be the target of this government efficiency effort anyway?

Jason Palmer [00:13:35] So why do you think Nasser would be the target of this government efficiency effort anyway?

Tim Cross [00:13:39] It’s hard to think maybe of a more visible example of potentially wasteful government spending than the Artemis program, a vast project to rerun the 1960s with the goal of landing humans back on the moon, where, of course, America first went in 1969, involves this big rocket called the Space Launch System. The SLS, a crew capsule, a somewhat pointless looking space station that orbits around the moon and so far spent about $93 billion and not flown a single astronaut at all.

Tim Cross [00:13:39] It’s hard to think maybe of a more visible example of potentially wasteful government spending than the Artemis program, a vast project to rerun the 1960s with the goal of landing humans back on the moon, where, of course, America first went in 1969, involves this big rocket called the Space Launch System. The SLS, a crew capsule, a somewhat pointless looking space station that orbits around the moon and so far spent about $93 billion and not flown a single astronaut at all.

Jason Palmer [00:14:11] So if we are speaking just about this, then that should be axed or slimmed down or just simply made more efficient by the Doge folk.

Jason Palmer [00:14:11] So if we are speaking just about this, then that should be axed or slimmed down or just simply made more efficient by the Doge folk.

Tim Cross [00:14:20] I think you could make a case for all three of those. There are lots of places where you can point to wasteful spending and lots of places where you say, you know, maybe this could be cut immediately. So if you start with the rocket itself, the SLS is essentially built from upcycled space shuttle parts. You know, the reason it’s orange is that the central orbit is a stretched version of the space shuttle’s fuel tank. It uses the same solid rocket boosters that’s strapped to the side that powered the space shuttle. And it even uses the same engines on the bottom. And the idea of this back in the day, the SLAC was first designed was when we built these things before we know how to do it. This should save money. And I think it’s pretty safe to say at this point that whatever else it’s done, it hasn’t saved money. And if you look at a report from NASA’s own inspector general, they reckon that the first four flights of the SRS will cost around $4.1 billion each. Rockets are expensive, but they don’t have to be that expensive. It’s something on the order of maybe 20 times the launch price of one of space X’s Falcon heavy rocket. Back in 2019, Jim Bridenstine, who was then running NASA, ended up almost being fired after he said, Well, hang on a second, Maybe we should look at using Falcon Heavy instead of ourselves because we could probably then get to the moon more quickly.

Tim Cross [00:14:20] I think you could make a case for all three of those. There are lots of places where you can point to wasteful spending and lots of places where you say, you know, maybe this could be cut immediately. So if you start with the rocket itself, the SLS is essentially built from upcycled space shuttle parts. You know, the reason it’s orange is that the central orbit is a stretched version of the space shuttle’s fuel tank. It uses the same solid rocket boosters that’s strapped to the side that powered the space shuttle. And it even uses the same engines on the bottom. And the idea of this back in the day, the SLAC was first designed was when we built these things before we know how to do it. This should save money. And I think it’s pretty safe to say at this point that whatever else it’s done, it hasn’t saved money. And if you look at a report from NASA’s own inspector general, they reckon that the first four flights of the SRS will cost around $4.1 billion each. Rockets are expensive, but they don’t have to be that expensive. It’s something on the order of maybe 20 times the launch price of one of space X’s Falcon heavy rocket. Back in 2019, Jim Bridenstine, who was then running NASA, ended up almost being fired after he said, Well, hang on a second, Maybe we should look at using Falcon Heavy instead of ourselves because we could probably then get to the moon more quickly.

Jason Palmer [00:15:34] There is another solution out there, a falcon heavy, that ultimately has the ability to put us to potentially. Gosh, Gerst is going to be so mad at me for saying there is nothing sacred here that is off the table that could help us land boots on the moon in 2024.

Jason Palmer [00:15:34] There is another solution out there, a falcon heavy, that ultimately has the ability to put us to potentially. Gosh, Gerst is going to be so mad at me for saying there is nothing sacred here that is off the table that could help us land boots on the moon in 2024.

Tim Cross [00:15:50] And then if the media reports are to be believed after that, he was given a pretty serious dressing down in private by a guy called Richard Shelby, who was then one of the senators for Alabama. And when Bridenstine Next appeared in public, he was very much toeing the line that, no, no, no, we have to stick with the SLS.

Tim Cross [00:15:50] And then if the media reports are to be believed after that, he was given a pretty serious dressing down in private by a guy called Richard Shelby, who was then one of the senators for Alabama. And when Bridenstine Next appeared in public, he was very much toeing the line that, no, no, no, we have to stick with the SLS.

Jason Palmer [00:16:08] We have looked at options and we have determined that the the only option where we are going to be able to put humans on the surface of the moon in 2024, which is my mandate is to utilise the SLS.

Jason Palmer [00:16:08] We have looked at options and we have determined that the the only option where we are going to be able to put humans on the surface of the moon in 2024, which is my mandate is to utilise the SLS.

Tim Cross [00:16:22] And this, I think is an example of why, although on paper Artemus looks like a turkey, actually cutting it in practice is going to be quite difficult because it conflicts with a lot of vested interests at the state level.

Tim Cross [00:16:22] And this, I think is an example of why, although on paper Artemus looks like a turkey, actually cutting it in practice is going to be quite difficult because it conflicts with a lot of vested interests at the state level.

Jason Palmer [00:16:36] Presumably in the state of Alabama. If Mr. Shelby was so exercised by that quote.

Jason Palmer [00:16:36] Presumably in the state of Alabama. If Mr. Shelby was so exercised by that quote.

Tim Cross [00:16:41] Well, Alabama is the state that host the Marshall Space Flight Centre, which is the bit of an asset that’s in charge of the SLS. To understand this, you have to look back to when Nasser was founded. And what they did then was spread the sort of expertise. They spread the organisation across several different American states. And politically, this was then perhaps quite a canny move because you had all these high tech, well-paid engineering jobs dotted all around the country. And no senator wants to see those kind of jobs leave his or her home state. So by doing that, you sort of ended up giving Nasser a phalanx of congressional bodyguards who would make sure that the funding wouldn’t be cut too much. These days, though, I think the feeling is very much that it’s the bodyguards who paradoxically are in charge of this thing now. And in fact, that’s why one of the last nicknames is the Senate launch system, because this whole thing is being driven more by Congress than it is by Nasser itself.

Tim Cross [00:16:41] Well, Alabama is the state that host the Marshall Space Flight Centre, which is the bit of an asset that’s in charge of the SLS. To understand this, you have to look back to when Nasser was founded. And what they did then was spread the sort of expertise. They spread the organisation across several different American states. And politically, this was then perhaps quite a canny move because you had all these high tech, well-paid engineering jobs dotted all around the country. And no senator wants to see those kind of jobs leave his or her home state. So by doing that, you sort of ended up giving Nasser a phalanx of congressional bodyguards who would make sure that the funding wouldn’t be cut too much. These days, though, I think the feeling is very much that it’s the bodyguards who paradoxically are in charge of this thing now. And in fact, that’s why one of the last nicknames is the Senate launch system, because this whole thing is being driven more by Congress than it is by Nasser itself.

Jason Palmer [00:17:36] So there’s a whole new frontier of conflict then, when Mr. Musk and company come in trying to slash things.

Jason Palmer [00:17:36] So there’s a whole new frontier of conflict then, when Mr. Musk and company come in trying to slash things.

Tim Cross [00:17:42] Yeah. So if you look at the person who Donald Trump has suggested be the new massive boss, Jared Isaacman, he has paid SpaceX X for two missions into space out of his own pocket. He seems quite keen on the idea that Artemis should have its wings fairly heavily clipped. But the problem, as you said, is that the man who’s pushing all this behind the scenes, we think is Elon Musk. And of course, he owns Space X, And if Nasser does ditch the SLAs or pare back RS, invest in other ways, then the only organisation in America that could still get American astronauts to the moon is going to be Space X. So I think no matter how good the case looks on paper, it’s going to be almost impossible for Musk to avoid allegations of self-dealing and people saying, well, he’s only doing this because he wants to send the money space X is.

Tim Cross [00:17:42] Yeah. So if you look at the person who Donald Trump has suggested be the new massive boss, Jared Isaacman, he has paid SpaceX X for two missions into space out of his own pocket. He seems quite keen on the idea that Artemis should have its wings fairly heavily clipped. But the problem, as you said, is that the man who’s pushing all this behind the scenes, we think is Elon Musk. And of course, he owns Space X, And if Nasser does ditch the SLAs or pare back RS, invest in other ways, then the only organisation in America that could still get American astronauts to the moon is going to be Space X. So I think no matter how good the case looks on paper, it’s going to be almost impossible for Musk to avoid allegations of self-dealing and people saying, well, he’s only doing this because he wants to send the money space X is.

Jason Palmer [00:18:35] Right. But we’ve talked a lot on the show about the push for private space, and it seems to be going very well and comparatively efficiently. This is these are just the hiccups on the way to an eventual decline of NASA, is it not?

Jason Palmer [00:18:35] Right. But we’ve talked a lot on the show about the push for private space, and it seems to be going very well and comparatively efficiently. This is these are just the hiccups on the way to an eventual decline of NASA, is it not?

Tim Cross [00:18:47] There definitely is a big and thriving private space industry, and there are companies doing everything from sending scientific probes to the moon to out there stuff like asteroid mining and zero gravity manufacturing. Or at least an aspiring to do these things. I think the problem is, though, there’s only one private company that has the capability to do art and instead of NASA and that’s Space X, I think that’s just going to give even more ammunition to the people in Congress who would still like to keep those asteroids jobs, would still like to keep them in their home states and will probably do their best to frustrate any effort at killing it.

Tim Cross [00:18:47] There definitely is a big and thriving private space industry, and there are companies doing everything from sending scientific probes to the moon to out there stuff like asteroid mining and zero gravity manufacturing. Or at least an aspiring to do these things. I think the problem is, though, there’s only one private company that has the capability to do art and instead of NASA and that’s Space X, I think that’s just going to give even more ammunition to the people in Congress who would still like to keep those asteroids jobs, would still like to keep them in their home states and will probably do their best to frustrate any effort at killing it.

Jason Palmer [00:19:24] Tim, thanks very much for your time.

Jason Palmer [00:19:24] Tim, thanks very much for your time.

Tim Cross [00:19:26] Thanks, Jason.

Jason Palmer [00:19:48] I have been taken to Duke Spa in St James’s, a swish part of London, a place that is absolutely famous for martinis, which I’m sure you know, makes me very happy indeed. First of all. Material check our news editor has brought me here. Thank you. As an as an opening gambit. Thanks. Why are we here?

Jason Palmer [00:19:48] I have been taken to Duke Spa in St James’s, a swish part of London, a place that is absolutely famous for martinis, which I’m sure you know, makes me very happy indeed. First of all. Material check our news editor has brought me here. Thank you. As an as an opening gambit. Thanks. Why are we here?

Maria Wilczek [00:20:07] Well, Jade Spa hidden away in the side streets here, but so ready with a queue of 20 people outside waiting to try one of these iconic martinis is probably the place to have one of these drinks in London.

Maria Wilczek [00:20:07] Well, Jade Spa hidden away in the side streets here, but so ready with a queue of 20 people outside waiting to try one of these iconic martinis is probably the place to have one of these drinks in London.

Jason Palmer [00:20:22] Okay. And for the uninitiated, God help them. What’s in a martini?

Jason Palmer [00:20:22] Okay. And for the uninitiated, God help them. What’s in a martini?

Maria Wilczek [00:20:27] So a martini is a cocktail that is made with chilled gin or vodka with something mousse. There’s no strict recipe for it. In general, it’s something that is short, strong and made with light spirits. But there have been endless riffs on it for more than a century.

Maria Wilczek [00:20:27] So a martini is a cocktail that is made with chilled gin or vodka with something mousse. There’s no strict recipe for it. In general, it’s something that is short, strong and made with light spirits. But there have been endless riffs on it for more than a century.

Jason Palmer [00:20:48] And I know that the history is a really messy thing. So let’s not talk about the fraught history and where it came from and where the first one was. But tell me some stuff. We do know for sure about them.

Jason Palmer [00:20:48] And I know that the history is a really messy thing. So let’s not talk about the fraught history and where it came from and where the first one was. But tell me some stuff. We do know for sure about them.

Maria Wilczek [00:20:59] So we know that the Martini is an American invention. It came about around the end of the 19th century as an apparatus when the myth made its way to America. It became very fashionable to have sweet drinks before dinner made with it. Then, around the turn of the century, as distillation became better, people started ordering more and more dry martinis. It became a macho drink, extolled by many writers like Hemingway, who enjoyed more parts gin than vermouth. Then around the 1980s, the pendulum swung back the other way, and fruity, frothy, colourful martinis became very fashionable fruit punches, espresso. All of these new things were mixed into the drink until we’ve arrived back at the classics today.

Maria Wilczek [00:20:59] So we know that the Martini is an American invention. It came about around the end of the 19th century as an apparatus when the myth made its way to America. It became very fashionable to have sweet drinks before dinner made with it. Then, around the turn of the century, as distillation became better, people started ordering more and more dry martinis. It became a macho drink, extolled by many writers like Hemingway, who enjoyed more parts gin than vermouth. Then around the 1980s, the pendulum swung back the other way, and fruity, frothy, colourful martinis became very fashionable fruit punches, espresso. All of these new things were mixed into the drink until we’ve arrived back at the classics today.

Maria Wilczek [00:21:53] Our martinis are very simple is about the quality of the ingredients, the temperature of the glass.

Maria Wilczek [00:21:53] Our martinis are very simple is about the quality of the ingredients, the temperature of the glass.

Jason Palmer [00:21:59] What’s the most popular one?

Jason Palmer [00:21:59] What’s the most popular one?

Maria Wilczek [00:22:00] The most popular. The actually three is the gin or the vodka or the Vesper.

Maria Wilczek [00:22:00] The most popular. The actually three is the gin or the vodka or the Vesper.

Jason Palmer [00:22:06] I would like a Vesper. I suppose the question is in all of that rich history, there’s a bunch of drinks. Why is the martini? Do we think such an enduring one?

Jason Palmer [00:22:06] I would like a Vesper. I suppose the question is in all of that rich history, there’s a bunch of drinks. Why is the martini? Do we think such an enduring one?

Maria Wilczek [00:22:14] So a new book by Alice Russell, who’s a reporter at the Financial Times, has just recently come out. It’s called the Martini, and she argues that the enduring appeal of the drink is down to it, being resilient and adaptable. It’s survived for over a century precisely because it is easy to make at home. So during the prohibition, for example, when the cocktail bars were closed down, people were able to continue making the drink, which really just needs to ingredients. But also there are endless variations that you can have on the classic recipe which allows you to personalise. It allows bartenders to show off their skills, all the while retaining the sophistication of quite a simple drink and the elegance of that, but also something mischievous. When you order a martini at the start of the night, you immediately know that it’s going to be more interesting than had you gone for a glass of wine or a more elaborate colourful cocktail.

Maria Wilczek [00:22:14] So a new book by Alice Russell, who’s a reporter at the Financial Times, has just recently come out. It’s called the Martini, and she argues that the enduring appeal of the drink is down to it, being resilient and adaptable. It’s survived for over a century precisely because it is easy to make at home. So during the prohibition, for example, when the cocktail bars were closed down, people were able to continue making the drink, which really just needs to ingredients. But also there are endless variations that you can have on the classic recipe which allows you to personalise. It allows bartenders to show off their skills, all the while retaining the sophistication of quite a simple drink and the elegance of that, but also something mischievous. When you order a martini at the start of the night, you immediately know that it’s going to be more interesting than had you gone for a glass of wine or a more elaborate colourful cocktail.

Jason Palmer [00:23:16] Which is to say we’re set up for a good night here already.

Jason Palmer [00:23:16] Which is to say we’re set up for a good night here already.

Maria Wilczek [00:23:19] So that’s in the first place. So like I said, now a couple of jug of Angostura bitters, that’s to give a little bit of colour and the bitterness does the vermouth. Amber is 21 point AB, which is quite higher for that much. They’re not going to have the vodka, polish, rye, vodka ramparts. And then the three parts will be in number three, drilling the top. And then instead of a lemon, I use an orange and you will see the magic. I see the oil come out. Well, Have you had.

Maria Wilczek [00:23:19] So that’s in the first place. So like I said, now a couple of jug of Angostura bitters, that’s to give a little bit of colour and the bitterness does the vermouth. Amber is 21 point AB, which is quite higher for that much. They’re not going to have the vodka, polish, rye, vodka ramparts. And then the three parts will be in number three, drilling the top. And then instead of a lemon, I use an orange and you will see the magic. I see the oil come out. Well, Have you had.

Maria Wilczek [00:23:54] Any interesting martinis?

Maria Wilczek [00:23:54] Any interesting martinis?

Jason Palmer [00:23:55] I mean, I think the one that sticks in a lot of people’s memory is the espresso martini, which is pretty far removed. Right. It does not seem very martini esque. I suppose I’d argue that lots of things are called martinis that aren’t. It’s sort of sucking some of the martini cool for some new obscure thanks.

Jason Palmer [00:23:55] I mean, I think the one that sticks in a lot of people’s memory is the espresso martini, which is pretty far removed. Right. It does not seem very martini esque. I suppose I’d argue that lots of things are called martinis that aren’t. It’s sort of sucking some of the martini cool for some new obscure thanks.

Maria Wilczek [00:24:12] Well, that’s true. At this point. They come in different shapes and sizes and colours. There’s one that’s a nother famous, far more modern one called Tia Elementary in London, where they will serve you the iconic green olive, but stuffed with blue cheese in a tiny vodka glass, a kind of bite size martini that has some of the DNA of the original but is, as you say, quite far removed.

Maria Wilczek [00:24:12] Well, that’s true. At this point. They come in different shapes and sizes and colours. There’s one that’s a nother famous, far more modern one called Tia Elementary in London, where they will serve you the iconic green olive, but stuffed with blue cheese in a tiny vodka glass, a kind of bite size martini that has some of the DNA of the original but is, as you say, quite far removed.

Jason Palmer [00:24:40] I suppose another question is why the drink is still so popular as a famously sort of strong series. As drinkers drink when what we hear is that people are tending to drink less, and particularly the young.

Jason Palmer [00:24:40] I suppose another question is why the drink is still so popular as a famously sort of strong series. As drinkers drink when what we hear is that people are tending to drink less, and particularly the young.

Maria Wilczek [00:24:52] That’s true. Especially young people are indeed drinking less, but they’re drinking better. So people are turning away from many cheap drinks and towards quality cocktails, often ones that they can make at home. And with the martini, you can endlessly riff on the basic recipe in a study by two mixologists identified that just by looking at 21 variables, that leads you to almost 7 quadrillion possible combinations of a drink. And as personalisation and expressing yourself in various ways is becoming more popular in fashion and food. The martini is the perfect canvas to express yourself with both.

Maria Wilczek [00:24:52] That’s true. Especially young people are indeed drinking less, but they’re drinking better. So people are turning away from many cheap drinks and towards quality cocktails, often ones that they can make at home. And with the martini, you can endlessly riff on the basic recipe in a study by two mixologists identified that just by looking at 21 variables, that leads you to almost 7 quadrillion possible combinations of a drink. And as personalisation and expressing yourself in various ways is becoming more popular in fashion and food. The martini is the perfect canvas to express yourself with both.

Jason Palmer [00:25:36] Maria, thank you very much for that. I think it’s probably time that we give these things to try. That’s cute.

Jason Palmer [00:25:36] Maria, thank you very much for that. I think it’s probably time that we give these things to try. That’s cute.

Clip [00:25:44] It smells amazing. It tastes sweet and slightly bitter from the orange peel. You can’t feel the alcohol that much, considering that this is five shots of meat, booze.

Clip [00:25:44] It smells amazing. It tastes sweet and slightly bitter from the orange peel. You can’t feel the alcohol that much, considering that this is five shots of meat, booze.

Jason Palmer [00:26:00] I feel the alcohol. It is definitely a no nonsense, boozy drink.

Jason Palmer [00:26:00] I feel the alcohol. It is definitely a no nonsense, boozy drink.

Rosie Blau [00:26:17] Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s it for this episode of the Intelligence. Do you let us know what you think of the show? You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:26:17] Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s it for this episode of the Intelligence. Do you let us know what you think of the show? You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

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